Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?
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You stated... that you believe God elects to heaven and that you do not believe he condemns to hell (I agree, but will elaborate on this), then you followed with... you believe the scriptures teach that God allows mankind a free choice to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth and by man's choice he condemns himself to hell (I agree, and if God casts them to hell is because the life they chose on earn to not serve God, brought this condemnation upon them), and then you follow with... you do not believe the scriptures teach that there are requirements that man has to do in order to be eternally saved and that the scriptures teach that eternal salvation is by God's sovereign grace without the help of man.
First, I never stated that man works to earn salvation and never insinuated such a false doctrine, but to believe in an act of love that God demonstrated on the cross through his Son to gracefully give salvation is not an act of work to them that believe. You stated that God allows mankind a free choice to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth and that by man's choice to not serve God he condemns himself to hell. If man can choose how he wants to live and he chooses not to serve God ultimately condemning himself to hell, then in the same manner, man can choose the gift of salvation that God offers and in choosing he decided that he wants to serve God, nothing to do with earning salvation.
Ephesians 2:8.9 states... For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Is faith in God to obtain the free gift of God works? It is safely to say that according to your view faith is not required because God elects without works. What I am trying to convey to you in the above is that believing or exercising faith in God is not works, just like Elijah called fire from heaven, it was his faith that allow God to cause fire to come out of heaven, it was not his works.
God is absolutely sovereign, therefore, he can call it as it was. He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, yet we did not come into existence until we were born. Question, did he choose those who did not serve him before the foundation of the world to come into existence? I am asking this question to convey that God is absolutely sovereign, he can call due to his foreknowledge, so he knows all existence prior to existence. Romans 9:11 says... for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. Now, Rebekah was barren and God in his sovereign called existence before the actual birth. Isaac's faith in God was the act that caused God's word to come to past and God beforehand knew that he would pray. Romans 4:17 says ... God calleth those things which be not as though they were and this is because of his sovereignty. 2 Chronicles 7:14 God says, if my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. This states that Israel had to act, nothing to do with works, same with believing, nothing to do with work.
I know where you stand and the difference between us is that I believe one has to believe, one decide if he what to serve God, you believe there is no decision, that God elects, but he does not sent people to hell. Being the later is correct that God does not condemn to hell, but that people choose to go there not serving, I will not state that you are introducing a false doctrine, the theology in elect and decision does not insinuate false doctrine, unless one says God sends to hell what Calvinism state.
First, I never stated that man works to earn salvation and never insinuated such a false doctrine, but to believe in an act of love that God demonstrated on the cross through his Son to gracefully give salvation is not an act of work to them that believe. You stated that God allows mankind a free choice to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth and that by man's choice to not serve God he condemns himself to hell. If man can choose how he wants to live and he chooses not to serve God ultimately condemning himself to hell, then in the same manner, man can choose the gift of salvation that God offers and in choosing he decided that he wants to serve God, nothing to do with earning salvation.
Ephesians 2:8.9 states... For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Is faith in God to obtain the free gift of God works? It is safely to say that according to your view faith is not required because God elects without works. What I am trying to convey to you in the above is that believing or exercising faith in God is not works, just like Elijah called fire from heaven, it was his faith that allow God to cause fire to come out of heaven, it was not his works.
God is absolutely sovereign, therefore, he can call it as it was. He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, yet we did not come into existence until we were born. Question, did he choose those who did not serve him before the foundation of the world to come into existence? I am asking this question to convey that God is absolutely sovereign, he can call due to his foreknowledge, so he knows all existence prior to existence. Romans 9:11 says... for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. Now, Rebekah was barren and God in his sovereign called existence before the actual birth. Isaac's faith in God was the act that caused God's word to come to past and God beforehand knew that he would pray. Romans 4:17 says ... God calleth those things which be not as though they were and this is because of his sovereignty. 2 Chronicles 7:14 God says, if my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. This states that Israel had to act, nothing to do with works, same with believing, nothing to do with work.
I know where you stand and the difference between us is that I believe one has to believe, one decide if he what to serve God, you believe there is no decision, that God elects, but he does not sent people to hell. Being the later is correct that God does not condemn to hell, but that people choose to go there not serving, I will not state that you are introducing a false doctrine, the theology in elect and decision does not insinuate false doctrine, unless one says God sends to hell what Calvinism state.
where at?
& hello, welcome to the forum
& hello, welcome to the forum
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Thanks for taking the time to make these informative comments. I think some of our differences is the way we understand the foreknowledge of God and the capabilities of the natural man, before he has been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What God saw by his foreknowledge was Romans 3:10-11-12, As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. This is the condition of mankind (1 Cor 2:14) before God regenerates them (Eph 2) While they were yet dead (spiritually and could not discern the things of the Spirit) God quickened them together with Christ by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and after that transformation they were able to discern the things of the Spirit and capable of confessing and repenting. Salvation according to Greek means "a deliverance". There is an eternal deliverance and there are many deliverances we receive here in time. After the natural man has been regenerated, there is a deliverance (salvation here in time) when the new born babe in Christ becomes knowledgeable of the gospel through the hearing of the word by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. In this manner, God gets all of the glory for man's eternal salvation, instead of man getting the glory by his believing, confessing and repenting.
all of us choose death. all we do with our free will - before He changes us - is choose evil.
God chooses to save some, having mercy on whom He will. no one is saved apart from His mercy, for 'in Adam all die' and 'no one is good but God alone'
so as i see it my answer is yes, God elects and condemns, because He is just and holy, and every one of us is guilty, worthy of condemnation, by our own choosing.
((my apologies for giving an explanation lol))
God chooses to save some, having mercy on whom He will. no one is saved apart from His mercy, for 'in Adam all die' and 'no one is good but God alone'
so as i see it my answer is yes, God elects and condemns, because He is just and holy, and every one of us is guilty, worthy of condemnation, by our own choosing.
((my apologies for giving an explanation lol))
if no one seeks Him how did these men come to walk with Him?
is it just, no one seeks Him anymore or have we all been this way, since Adam was driven out of the garden?
even Job - who didn't sin with his mouth - would God have been just to hold against him that he questioned God for allowing calamity to come upon him? God's answer to him was who do you think you are to question me? and Job's reply was to clap his own hand over his mouth. isn't this also the LORD showing mercy to those who fear Him?
is it just, no one seeks Him anymore or have we all been this way, since Adam was driven out of the garden?
even Job - who didn't sin with his mouth - would God have been just to hold against him that he questioned God for allowing calamity to come upon him? God's answer to him was who do you think you are to question me? and Job's reply was to clap his own hand over his mouth. isn't this also the LORD showing mercy to those who fear Him?
OK lol the reason i couldn't find it was because it wasn't in this thread at all
attempting to make some reply without turning this also into another sabbath fracas:
for sure He comes to fulfill everything from Moses to Malachi - all of it is written of Him. i'd been racking my brain trying to figure out what you could have been bringing up with FGC from this passage that had anything to do with His purpose of election, did not occur to me that it was about sabbath.
but with regard to election and fulfilling all that is written of Him, doesn't Paul in Romans 9 show how Jacob was chosen above Esau before they were even born and had done nothing either right or wrong? and per Genesis 25:23, Yah reveals this to their mother when she inquires of Him "why is this happening?" as they struggled within her.
this is about Christ, too. in her two entities struggle, before they have done any works, by God's own design. per Romans, this is 'in order that His purpose of election might stand' - and it foreshadows what Paul describes in Romans 6-8, how that within us the flesh struggles against the spirit, before either of them well up into works, whether good or evil. Christ then, Adam 2.0, having appeared in the flesh and overcome it, is the 'younger' which the 'older' is brought into subjection to.
so Christ is the fulfillment of the son of promise - and in Him we are chosen before the foundation of the world. in the womb the son of promise struggles with the son who despised his birthright: did Esau despise this by his own choice or by election? does the fact Jacob was chosen before birth necessarily imply God chose Esau to sin? or were both sons of Adam 1.0, and God in His mercy separated to Himself a remnant?
we can't say Jacob 'earned' this blessing; he was elected before he had done anything at all. in fact at birth, he struck at the heel of of his brother, as tho an image of the serpent who does the same to the seed of promise: Jacob is not without sin, but Yah shows abounding compassion to him. in this Christ is not like Jacob, because there is no sin in Him at all - but He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, and was made sin for us, so that as Jacob was chosen apart from works, by grace through faith we also are found chosen in Him, those predestined, called, justified and made righteous.
attempting to make some reply without turning this also into another sabbath fracas:
for sure He comes to fulfill everything from Moses to Malachi - all of it is written of Him. i'd been racking my brain trying to figure out what you could have been bringing up with FGC from this passage that had anything to do with His purpose of election, did not occur to me that it was about sabbath.
but with regard to election and fulfilling all that is written of Him, doesn't Paul in Romans 9 show how Jacob was chosen above Esau before they were even born and had done nothing either right or wrong? and per Genesis 25:23, Yah reveals this to their mother when she inquires of Him "why is this happening?" as they struggled within her.
this is about Christ, too. in her two entities struggle, before they have done any works, by God's own design. per Romans, this is 'in order that His purpose of election might stand' - and it foreshadows what Paul describes in Romans 6-8, how that within us the flesh struggles against the spirit, before either of them well up into works, whether good or evil. Christ then, Adam 2.0, having appeared in the flesh and overcome it, is the 'younger' which the 'older' is brought into subjection to.
so Christ is the fulfillment of the son of promise - and in Him we are chosen before the foundation of the world. in the womb the son of promise struggles with the son who despised his birthright: did Esau despise this by his own choice or by election? does the fact Jacob was chosen before birth necessarily imply God chose Esau to sin? or were both sons of Adam 1.0, and God in His mercy separated to Himself a remnant?
we can't say Jacob 'earned' this blessing; he was elected before he had done anything at all. in fact at birth, he struck at the heel of of his brother, as tho an image of the serpent who does the same to the seed of promise: Jacob is not without sin, but Yah shows abounding compassion to him. in this Christ is not like Jacob, because there is no sin in Him at all - but He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, and was made sin for us, so that as Jacob was chosen apart from works, by grace through faith we also are found chosen in Him, those predestined, called, justified and made righteous.
From your statement God condemns to eternal damnation; what a God you serve, a God who appears to be boastful in his sovereignty, saving those who he wants to save and condemning those who he wants to sent to eternal damnation without allowing a choice who they want to serve. The God I serve is a merciful God, whose mercy endureth forever, a God whose love is beyond once imagination and who manifested his mercy and love in the death of Yeshua on the cross giving man the choice to accept this free give of salvation that he offers.
I know that God is absolutely sovereign, but there is something about his love that continues to be demonstrated something you fail to see. Continue believing in your distorted view and I call it what it is and I speak to you respectfully.
I know that God is absolutely sovereign, but there is something about his love that continues to be demonstrated something you fail to see. Continue believing in your distorted view and I call it what it is and I speak to you respectfully.
i think you missed the part where i said we all choose death.
that means we are certainly all allowed a choice - and we all certainly choose poorly.
if He sets before us life and death ((fact 1)) and all have gone astray, no one is good, no one is without sin ((fact 2)) then what does that say about what we naturally do with our free will?
that means we are certainly all allowed a choice - and we all certainly choose poorly.
if He sets before us life and death ((fact 1)) and all have gone astray, no one is good, no one is without sin ((fact 2)) then what does that say about what we naturally do with our free will?
if no one seeks Him how did these men come to walk with Him?
is it just, no one seeks Him anymore or have we all been this way, since Adam was driven out of the garden?
even Job - who didn't sin with his mouth - would God have been just to hold against him that he questioned God for allowing calamity to come upon him? God's answer to him was who do you think you are to question me? and Job's reply was to clap his own hand over his mouth. isn't this also the LORD showing mercy to those who fear Him?
is it just, no one seeks Him anymore or have we all been this way, since Adam was driven out of the garden?
even Job - who didn't sin with his mouth - would God have been just to hold against him that he questioned God for allowing calamity to come upon him? God's answer to him was who do you think you are to question me? and Job's reply was to clap his own hand over his mouth. isn't this also the LORD showing mercy to those who fear Him?
I say this respectfully, don't bother responding to my post, you are stuck in a false doctrine, the doctrine that God condemns to eternal damnation. It is people like you that I have to just pull away from just like I did with unitedwithchrist who is stuck with distorted teachings and just what to impress with his distorted view.
Therefore, respectfully, I won't respond to your distorted doctrine, which you can continue to believe.
"He will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:41-46)
do you believe in universal salvation? as you yourself have just said, no one comes to the cross without the Spirit intervening in them. without Him, each and every one of us goes chasing our own lusts and vanities.
no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father
(John 6:65)
seeing that you are agreeing with me i have no idea why you are condemning and rejecting me. Again, you are the one that is stating that God elects who gets eternal life and condemns those who he wants to cast into eternal damnation, which is a total false doctrine that you are believing. We are discussing do man has the free will to choose to serve God or to not serve him and in your post you do not believe thy have that choice since God elects and condemn as he wishes according to your view.
You are missing the point, so before responding to a post make who you see what is being discuss. Let me make myself clear, I do not believe the distorted view you hold that God condemns to eternal damnation as he wishes.
You are missing the point, so before responding to a post make who you see what is being discuss. Let me make myself clear, I do not believe the distorted view you hold that God condemns to eternal damnation as he wishes.
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