Thanks.
Works both ways, I suppose... I mean, my list could be just as long or l onger (of "scholars") but what would that prove? I'd prefer to look at what the Scriptures have to say on it (sure, "scholars" are important, but if some are saying
complete opposite things, they cannot both be correct. Both could be wrong, but both cannot be right. So we "search the scriptures, to see if these things be so"
)
[see my comments on a few of these, if I can fit it at the bottom of this Post]
Whenever someone says something like this ^ , I bring out the John 21:20-23, esp v.23 passage, where Peter himself had misunderstood the words of the risen Christ (face to face, even), and "Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him [Peter], 'He shall not die'; but, 'If I will that he tarry till I come, what
is that to thee?"
Already commented on him... that he was an "Historicist," not a "pre-tribber"
Agreed. Nevertheless, we must bring up the "scholars" and "early church fathers" and "church history" to see if these things be so. lol
First of all, the word
"RETURN" (
biblically speaking) DOES *only* refer to His Second Coming
to the earth (end of trib). Many ppl use this word flippantly, to speak of the time of our Rapture (which scripture itself does NOT).
As for the rest of your post, in total...
Re: bluto's Post quoting "the list" (in part), I've pulled out just A FEW and posted comment about them... but if you don't have the time to read this entire post, be SURE to look at the entry under the name "Marv Rosenthal" and take a listen to the 9-min vid by Dr David Hocking (and the note I placed there along with the link)"
[quoting PARTS of bluto's Post's LIST, with my comment following each]
"Therefore, it may help some to realize that many notable Christian leaders and scholars have been posttribulationalists. Here are a few (there are, of course, many others):
[...]
John Calvin - who believed in double predestination [that God created some for the sole purpose of reprobation]...
Two Calvin quotes: "Scripture clearly proves that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction." – (John Calvin: Institutes oof the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 7, Sec. 2210) [...and...] "Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction." (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Sec. 2231); (i.e. not what I call "good" scholarship)
[...]
Robert Gundry - [quote found-->] "One of the few ever booted out of the Evangelical Theological Society because of his use of a liberal Reformed approach to the New Testament called "redaction criticism." A very smart person who has attempted to intellectualize the Scriptures and Bible prophecy, but is not consistent. For example, once being dispensational and pre-tribulational, he turned against the pre-tribulation rapture view, then developed a new confusing type of post-tribulationism called "dispensational post-tribulationism." " [end quote]
[...]
Hank Hanegraaff - who's been persuaded to change TO the Preterist viewpoint (because post-trib viewpoint wasn't "far enough"
OFF! LOL );
[quote found-->] "scholars take issue with his anti-Israel position, and have problems with his eschatology, some calling it "strange theology." For example, he does not believe in a coming tribulation period, and he states that the Revelation judgments of the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials were all symbolic "warnings" that led to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D." [end quote]; (i.e. not what I call "good" scholarship); and I did mention (long posts back) about the guy who owns a Bible website, who "studied" himself "from pre-trib/premill to amill to preterist... to
now hard atheist"... and he's a "smart" [intelligent] guy (but wrong, sadly!)
[...]
Matthew Henry - a historicist postmillennial [post-mill means Jesus' 2nd Advent is AFTER the MK] (i.e. not what I call "good" scholarship);
[...]
George Eldon Ladd - [*see excerpt quoted below (at bottom of post), on this one]
[...]
Martin Luther - [isn't he the one who said the Book of Rev should not be a part of the Bible??] (i.e. not what I call "good" scholarship);
[...]
Dave McPherson - [very lame scholarship here, and besides that, I found a quote (below), only for the sake of _____ who had, earlier in this thread, said something to the effect that, "majority view" is a sure sign of
lame-ness ]
[quote found-->] "he is said to be publicly endorsed by numerous Christian leaders including premill, amill, postmill, preterist, historicist, futurist, midtrib, prewrath, posttrib, charismatic, dominionist, reformed, orthodox, and independents. That's a widely traveled road." [end quote] lol;
[...]
John Piper - who changes "the negative" to
the wrong clause, in Rom9:6, in his book "The Justification of God: An Exegetical and Theological Study of Romans 9:1-23," therefore having it say something
completely different from what the text actually conveys (i.e. not what I call "good" scholarship);
[continued in next post... too long here]