Not By Works

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Jan 12, 2019
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verse 25 is not Paul speaking. it's the Jews who wish to subject Paul to bondage who are speaking, the same bondage they subjected themselves to.
converted pharisees -- the same voices that in Acts 15 thought all believers must be commanded to be subject to Moses.
But James and the elders say the same thing.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Why don't you quote Acts 21:20-25 instead if you are replying to that post?
why do you always pretend verse 13 doesn't exist? i must have pointed it out to you a dozen times by now. it's essential to interpreting what Paul did when he arrived there to know what the Spirit had revealed to him would happen to him when he went there.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
is he writing to believers in James 5:1?
The entire letter is written to believers

Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain,"The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously? (James 4:5)

James starts out by saying that he is a bond servant of Jesus Christ. He doesn't try to convert anyone in his entire letter, so I assume that the recipients were also servants of Christ. Why would he write to unbelieving Jews? He is obviously giving instructions for the church.

In 2:1, he says "do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality." And then goes on to say how everyone who comes into the assembly should be treated equally because God has chosen those rich in faith (not possessions) to inherit the kingdom which "He promised to those who love Him". This is obviously the gospel that Christ preached to the Jews.

The whole tone is very Jewish and there is a lot written about the Law, so it seems clear that James wrote it to Jews, but they were believers in Christ.

Once again in verse 5:7 he uses the word brethren.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
If you cook a hamburger, you will smell it, but the oroma plays no role in cooking it.

If you cut wood, you will see sawdust, but the sawdust had no part in cutting the wood.

If you set a fire, you will see smoke. But the smoke did not produce the fire.
An your point is? This analogy means the works prove faith?

How about works where there is no faith... what does the prove?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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But James and the elders say the same thing.
yeah. not to subject the believer to a law they they and their fathers could not bear. notwithstanding, certain men from James came to Antioch and tempted Peter & Barnabas to hypocrisy. and when Paul visits expecting to be subjected to bondage and death, their only concern is the law, and they order him to subject himself to vows. so what was going on in the Jerusalem church? any error or are they paragons of right doctrine? we got any epistles to them? James tells them they're all lawbreakers and would do well to keep "the law of our King" -- love one another. whoever wrote Hebrews goes to great lengths to establish that the shadows are waxed away and the substance has come, to put no trust in the former things.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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The entire letter is written to believers

Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain,"The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously? (James 4:5)

James starts out by saying that he is a bond servant of Jesus Christ. He doesn't try to convert anyone in his entire letter, so I assume that the recipients were also servants of Christ. Why would he write to unbelieving Jews? He is obviously giving instructions for the church.

In 2:1, he says "do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality." And then goes on to say how everyone who comes into the assembly should be treated equally because God has chosen those rich in faith (not possessions) to inherit the kingdom which "He promised to those who love Him". This is obviously the gospel that Christ preached to the Jews.

The whole tone is very Jewish and there is a lot written about the Law, so it seems clear that James wrote it to Jews, but they were believers in Christ.

Once again in verse 5:7 he uses the word brethren.
Verse 7 is not referring to the same people as verse 1-5. "Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire"

anyways, 2 Corinthians 13:5 was written to believers or unbelievers?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Acts 21:13)

Paul was ready to be bound & die at Jerusalem. it is why he went there.

when he arrived some men were taking a voluntary vow and ordered him to do the same.

so he also submitted himself to bondage, willingly even to death.

going to Jerusalem in order to be subjected to bondage, and acquiescing to coercion to voluntarily take an uncommanded vow once he arrived there, does not mean Paul considered himself under the law. it's a testimony.
who else do we know who was willing to be bound and even put to death in Jerusalem?
threatened with bondage and death by who? people with right doctrine or wrong?
and was it because He was rightly convicted or falsely accused?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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whoever wrote Hebrews goes to great lengths to establish that the shadows are waxed away and the substance has come, to put no trust in the former things.
who needs to hear a message like this?
someone who has a right understanding of the gospel or someone who doesn't?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Verse 7 is not referring to the same people as verse 1-5. "Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire"

anyways, 2 Corinthians 13:5 was written to believers or unbelievers?
That is an assumption....on your part.... his strong language and rebuke in no way means that they were not saved... in fact it actually strengthens it, since why would he rebuke non-believers... he would give them the Gospel.

All letters written to believers.
My contention is that there is not a single letter in the New Testament that was not written specifically and only to be applied for those who through faith in Christ have been regenerated.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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That is an assumption....on your part.... his strong language and rebuke in no way means that they were not saved... in fact it actually strengthens it, since why would he rebuke non-believers... he would give them the Gospel.

All letters written to believers.
My contention is that there is not a single letter in the New Testament that was not written specifically and only to be applied for those who through faith in Christ have been regenerated.
But there are NUMEROUS references to those who are not believers. Galatians 5:12, 1 John 3:12, 1 John 3:15, 2 Peter 2:1, et al

The Bible is written not only to tell us how to be saved and instruct us how to live after we are saved, but to give us the ability to examine ourselves to whit whether or not we are in the faith. Do you agree?
 
Nov 16, 2019
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On the surface, that may sound like a good argument, but it's inconclusive. I already thoroughly explained why 'partakers of the Holy Spirit' may refer to a less than saving association or participation in post #116,551. Yet partakers of Christ and of the divine nature absolutely refers to a saved person. I also explained why 'taste' is not the same as 'drink' (Matthew 27:34) and we drink (and not simply taste) into one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13).
Same writer, same people, same subject, and same letter, in which 'partakers of Christ' means saved people in the first passage but all of a sudden 'partakers of the Holy Spirit' means not really saved people in the second passage?

12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end - Hebrews 3:12-14 NAS

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance - Hebrews 6:4-6 NAS

I know we are in the end of the end times and the leaven has worked it's way far into the dough, but we need to come back to the simplicity of the plain words in the Bible. We have these latter times theologians telling us what these plain words really mean, not what they plainly say and mean.

Reminds me of what the Scribes and the Pharisees did to the word of God in their day. They interpreted it for the common man so that in the end you came away with it not really meaning what it said (to the comfort of many), and so it lost it's original meaning, practicality, and application and in the end drew the people of God away in the opposite direction God was drawing them in. And in this case it's drawing people away into the false comfort of unbelieving, godless, disobedient lives--totally unprepared for the return of Christ. And now this latter day teaching of Calvin has changed into the belief that you do not have to die a believer to be saved when Jesus returns. You personally, mailmandan, may not have taken Calvin's already heretical teaching to this new level of heresy, but countless others have.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Just keep trusting in Christ and you'll be fine.:)
Even on the days when I feel so low , when my trust is so weak , my LORD holds me , for when I am weak , He is my strength...
I do not rely on my trust , in Him alone I trust , I trust His words to be true , His words cover me when the evil one comes along to give me doubt , just like you are doing , putting doubt into peoples minds , let God be true and every man a liar...
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Even on the days when I feel so low , when my trust is so weak , my LORD holds me , for when I am weak , He is my strength...
I do not rely on my trust , in Him alone I trust , I trust His words to be true , His words cover me when the evil one comes along to give me doubt , just like you are doing , putting doubt into peoples minds , let God be true and every man a liar...
Amen Rosemary...


We look to Jesus for the assurance of our salvation... not our works, not the strength of our belief on any given day.....

..... only to the One who is the author and finisher of our faith, Who promised that the gift is not revocable, is eternal and forever, because He is faithful and true.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
But there are NUMEROUS references to those who are not believers. Galatians 5:12, 1 John 3:12, 1 John 3:15, 2 Peter 2:1, et al

The Bible is written not only to tell us how to be saved and instruct us how to live after we are saved, but to give us the ability to examine ourselves to whit whether or not we are in the faith. Do you agree?

Paul is asking the Corinthian believers to see if they are abiding in the faith in their experience.
They were saved... sanctification is in view >>>>> being in the faith
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Faith without works is dead. Dead faith cannot save. But we are saved APART from works. Therefore, it is not the works that make the faith alive. It is our union with Christ that brings our faith to life.

So faith without works is dead does not equal saved by faith plus works. Sola fidei.
As well... James is not writing about some type of spurious faith... faith is faith.