Not By Works

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Nov 24, 2019
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Virginia
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@RebuildJesussChurch you can laugh now PAL.....but make no mistake....in the day of your calamity you will not be laughing......but rather begging, weeping, crying......
Trust me, this slave of Jesus Christ - my Lord and Savior - would NEVER laugh at the Gospel.

You mean you really don’t see what I’m laughing at??
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Trust me, this slave of Jesus Christ - my Lord and Savior - would NEVER laugh at the Gospel.

You mean you really don’t see what I’m laughing at??
I have read what you have written......the gospel you follow and peddle is not found in scripture....Make no mistake what you peddle is your own carnival cruise false gospel........and I know fully well what you are laughing at.....!!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I think there are two or more camps of osas that answer questions differently. Those who believe the p in tulip and those that reject it are very different, and answer questions like these very differently.

We don’t know who’s saved and who’s not. Someone could keep up appearances their whole life, and die lost.

I have a question for everyone. If a person, say like Bart Eerman, says they used to be a believer, but then turns around and says the Gospels are not reliable, and that Jesus did not rise from the dead.

Do you believe a person who has been born of God can do such

For osas and nosas alike.

(Probably a nosas person thinks it can happen, and some would think “ no return” and others that he could return to faith. I wonder what osas of a different persuasion than mine would say. )
That person would become what John calls an antichrist.

he answered your question also.
They were never of us, if they were of us, they never would have departed. But they departed to reveal they were never of us

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The problem is everyone is trying to answer this in an 'either/or, black&white' way. And that, IMO, is a mistake.

According to the Parable of the Sower, it depends on what kind of soil the word is planted in, and to what extent of suffering and/or prosperity the word is exposed to that determines if you will retain the word of God planted in you to the very end with little or no chance of losing it.

There are mature believers who will never renounce the kingdom of God, even under threat of death, and there are those who because of immaturity may renounce the kingdom of God at the next broken finger nail (more hyperbole, lol). What God is doing is warning us along the way to maturity to not lose the word planted in us which can save us and to become more and more the kind of soil in which the word of God perseveres no matter what conditions the soil is exposed to. This by far is the more useful and practical and edifying approach to this matter of once saved always saved.

Think of Simon, who in a similar analogy, started out on shifting sands and denied him out of fear of persecution, but who ended up as Peter, solid as the Rock of Jesus himself who, like Jesus, did not refuse to be crucified. It think it more wise to look at never being able to lose your salvation as a progression, not a one-time state settled at the moment of conversion.
Yeah let’s all ignore 1 john

he said it was lack and white. Lets follow what josh said, not what we WANT to think.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You are misquoting Hebrews. Here is what it actually says:

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
perfected forever means just that.positionally sanctified forever

they are also being sanctified. Or conditional sanctification. But notice. It is not THEM doing the work, the work is being done TO THEM,

it’s all a work of God,
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Trust me, this slave of Jesus Christ - my Lord and Savior - would NEVER laugh at the Gospel.

You mean you really don’t see what I’m laughing at??
How can you be a slave of Jesus if you reject his work on the cross and try to interject your own work to replace it?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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perfected forever means just that.positionally sanctified forever

they are also being sanctified. Or conditional sanctification. But notice. It is not THEM doing the work, the work is being done TO THEM,

it’s all a work of God,
Sanctification whilst done by the Holy Spirit still requires the obedience, commitment and pursuit of the believer.
Amplified bible Hebrews 12v14 14 Continually pursue peace with everyone, and the sanctification without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews 12:14
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sanctification whilst done by the Holy Spirit still requires the obedience, commitment and pursuit of the believer.
Amplified bible Hebrews 12v14 14 Continually pursue peace with everyone, and the sanctification without which no one will [ever] see the Lord.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews 12:14
It is still done by God through many paths, that is what the passage says, it is conditional because yes, we need to respond but it’s not our work it is still the work of God

and why are you still missing the fact that those who are being sanctified have been perfected forever already?

for by one sacrifice he has perfected forever those....”
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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It is still done by God through many paths, that is what the passage says, it is conditional because yes, we need to respond but it’s not our work it is still the work of God

and why are you still missing the fact that those who are being sanctified have been perfected forever already?

for by one sacrifice he has perfected forever those....”
The object of the "perfected forever" are those who are "being sanctified". The "perfected forever" are not those who are "not being sanctified". How does someone fall into the latter category? Its when they don't pursue sanctification as in Hebrews 12v14. The Lord says these ones will not see the Lord.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The object of the "perfected forever" are those who are "being sanctified". The "perfected forever" are not those who are "not being sanctified". How does someone fall into the latter category? Its when they don't pursue sanctification as in Hebrews 12v14. The Lord says these ones will not see the Lord.
So, the moment I am born again, iam being sanctified, at that point I am perfected forever.

but if I stop being sanctified, my perfected forever stops also.

can you see my problem? In this case, the word forever does not really mean forever, the author lied Did he not?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
The object of the "perfected forever" are those who are "being sanctified". The "perfected forever" are not those who are "not being sanctified". How does someone fall into the latter category? Its when they don't pursue sanctification as in Hebrews 12v14. The Lord says these ones will not see the Lord.
Sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit. How does it work? It is a work of Grace in our lives. And this work of grace can be described as follows: Titus 2 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

>The Holy Spirits work in sanctification is the teaching us and empowering us
>Our role in Sanctification is obedience to what the Holy Spirit teaches us, with His power to achieve it.

That's Santification in a nutshell.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
So, the moment I am born again, iam being sanctified, at that point I am perfected forever.

but if I stop being sanctified, my perfected forever stops also.

can you see my problem? In this case, the word forever does not really mean forever, the author lied Did he not?
See my following post. When you are born again, and then draw back, the Lord will not be pleased. Rejecting the work of sanctification is rejecting his plan for your life. Leads to apostasy. Hebrews 12v14 kicks in.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
See my following post. When you are born again, and then draw back, the Lord will not be pleased. Rejecting the work of sanctification is rejecting his plan for your life. Leads to apostasy. Hebrews 12v14 kicks in.
So Heb 12 overrules the fact that they were perfected forever? How does that equate for the reputation of God’s word?

perfected forever still means perfected forever Hebrews did not say they may be perfected, it depends on their willingness to be sanctified, can a believer who has gods spirit return to the point he is worse than he was before he was born again? How is that possible?

who rejects the work,of sanctification? Who can overpower God (those who are being sanctified) ? Who can break the seal of the spirit (Eph 1) Who can save themselves by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3). Who can overcome Gods promise to all who have taken the bread from heaven promises that they will never hunger or thirst, live forever, never die, be raised on the last day, and has eternal life) what hope do they have to continue to believe if they do not have eternal life (1 John) I can go on and on about eternal security passages.

why would you want to try to save yourself by your work, and reject gods promises? Just asking.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit. How does it work? It is a work of Grace in our lives. And this work of grace can be described as follows: Titus 2 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

>The Holy Spirits work in sanctification is the teaching us and empowering us
>Our role in Sanctification is obedience to what the Holy Spirit teaches us, with His power to achieve it.

That's Santification in a nutshell.
sanctification s the work of god in our lives, there are many facets to sanctification. One thing is sure, we will never in this lifetime be completely physically sanctified. All we can do is respond to Gods work in our lives and as Paul said run the race, look forward

justification is not based on how sanctified we become, it is based on gods grace and mercy, something no man or woman will ever deserve.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
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The "perfected forever" more refers to thefact that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was once for all time. No longer needs to be offered annually as was the case under the old covenant. The blood of Jesus cleanses the new believer, the repentant sinner who comes back to the Lord, and the mature believer, all believers.
So Heb 12 overrules the fact that they were perfected forever? How does that equate for the reputation of God’s word?

perfected forever still means perfected forever Hebrews did not say they may be perfected, it depends on their willingness to be sanctified, can a believer who has gods spirit return to the point he is worse than he was before he was born again? How is that possible?

who rejects the work,of sanctification? Who can overpower God (those who are being sanctified) ? Who can break the seal of the spirit (Eph 1) Who can save themselves by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3). Who can overcome Gods promise to all who have taken the bread from heaven promises that they will never hunger or thirst, live forever, never die, be raised on the last day, and has eternal life) what hope do they have to continue to believe if they do not have eternal life (1 John) I can go on and on about eternal security passages.

why would you want to try to save yourself by your work, and reject gods promises? Just asking.
Lets look at the "perfected forever" and the context in which it is found.

Hebrews 10 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being [d]sanctified.

It refers to the fact that Jesus sacrifice is PERFECT, and has no need to be repeated annually as per the old covenant with the high priest. This sacrifice covers the new believer, the old believer, the backslidden but now repentant believer. Jesus no longer needs to go to the cross again and again.

Now lets look a little further in Hebrews 10:

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness[f] to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

The Just Live by Faith
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
The "perfected forever" more refers to thefact that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was once for all time. No longer needs to be offered annually as was the case under the old covenant. The blood of Jesus cleanses the new believer, the repentant sinner who comes back to the Lord, and the mature believer, all believers.

Lets look at the "perfected forever" and the context in which it is found.

Hebrews 10 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being [d]sanctified.

It refers to the fact that Jesus sacrifice is PERFECT, and has no need to be repeated annually as per the old covenant with the high priest. This sacrifice covers the new believer, the old believer, the backslidden but now repentant believer. Jesus no longer needs to go to the cross again and again.

Now lets look a little further in Hebrews 10:

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness[f] to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

The Just Live by Faith
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
If you were truly honest with yourself, verse 29 should settle the matter once and for all.