Describe OSAS in terms of this passage.....

[Chris1975]

There is a MAJOR logical disconnect in the minds of people who think that Salvation can be lost.

Salvation is given as a Gift of God. It is not given because people have obeyed the law or because they are generally "good".


SO once this gift is given, and not from works, how can lack of works cause it to be taken away?



This should be abundantly obvious, but since God is the Author and Finisher of our Salvation, shouldn't it be clear that God provides for ALL of the "requirements" of Salvation?

And if you don't think so doesn't that make you an un-believer and therefore in danger?

DO you think that God will save someone and then forget to give them the attributes that will cause them to continue in their Salvation?


The only time that loss of salvation comes up is when someone INCORRECTLY interprets a parable or scripture and SIMULTANEOUSLY doesn't understand what Salvation is and Who it comes from.

Lets go to the passage in question, and analyse it:

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

What is the gift? Salvation? No thats not the actual gift. The actual gift is GRACE. You have heard of the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Grace. When we are in God's grace we are positionally saved, but we also work out our salvation through fear and trembling (in this grace). To those who overcome (by Gods grace) He will give to eat from the tree of life. The end result of living in this grace, when the Lord finally takes you, is everlating life. And we remain in this GRACE through our faith (belief in Christ). If we no longer have faith, we are no longer under his grace.

We cannot earn this grace through works. It is accessed through faith.

Hebrews 6v11
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

[Chris1975]

But what does that mean? Did Peter really understand? One thing is for sure, Peter did not know about the cross and Jesus dying for sin.

Read Luke 1-2 and see what Israel was really looking forward to.

Peter did not have full revelation as to Christs plan. Of course he didnt. But this isnt the qualification. He believed in the Messiah. This is the qualification. Jesus repeat ad infinitum "Believe in Me". And we can quite clearly see that Peter did. That was the original question.

 

[Chris1975]

This is not about Salvation.

This is about works of the law.

You sacrifice your lamb, ask for forgiveness and your are forgiven. Then, when you sin again, you are declared guilty again and the process starts all over.

So, in order to be Perfect according to the law, you would have to sacrifice your lamb, be forgiven and then walk perfectly afterward.

Then you would be OWED entrance into the Kingdom of God.


Salvation doesn't work that way. In Salvation, the Lamb is given, Forgiveness is given, and entrance into the Kingdom of God is given, all as gifts of God.

Read the parable again. The servant is thrown into jail.

 

[garee]

Jesus does not distinguish between the type of faith of Israel, and that of the Church.

Read Hebrews 3 and 4

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. 4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Yes its all one in the same, the faith of God that works in us.

The bible reckons all of mankind as born faithless, no faith that could please God . The faith of Christ is the faith that gives us ears to hear and a new heart to believe.

The faith of Christ was a work needed to please the just demands of the father as two working together to establish the government of God.. It is the same faith not of ourselves that works in every born again individual . The mutual faith of Christ. Its not gentile (no faith that could please God) verses Jewish (no faith that could please God). .But is the same spirit of faith of God, as it is written.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

The key is how do we mix faith as response to hearing the gospel . What does it mean to mx faith?

 

[John146]

Peter did not have full revelation as to Christs plan. Of course he didnt. But this isnt the qualification. He believed in the Messiah. This is the qualification. Jesus repeat ad infinitum "Believe in Me". And we can quite clearly see that Peter did. That was the original question.

He believed Jesus was the promised Messiah of Israel come to restore the promised kingdom to Israel.

 

[Guojing]

He believed Jesus was the promised Messiah of Israel come to restore the promised kingdom to Israel.

Yes, and under that Gospel of the Kingdom, it was enough to save him.

 

[garee]

You are misapplying that passage. The Jewish nation was supposed to accept Jesus as their Messiah before they become a light for all the Gentile nations. It was prophesied many times in the OT. (Example ZECHARIAH 8:23)

Hence, you cannot use that passage to contradict Jesus's words to the Canaanite lady. Jesus was indeed sent only to the lost sheep of Israel during his first coming on Earth.

God is no respecter of persons. He is not served by human hands or live in temples made with corrupted hands .His kingdom does not come by what the eyes see. . walking by sight. We rather walk by faith the unseen eternal

He defines the words and the usage of them. Its the father of lies that would attempt to change the meaning to suit the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye. Therefore producing a false sense of pride. . The three avenues that lead to him

1 John2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Remember all Israel is not born again Israel or the new name God named His bride; "Christian" in Acts . The lost sheep of Israel represent lost mankind. The ones that are found are called Christians or you can use the word Israel as a inward Jew .We do not know Christ who is not a man as us after corrupted mankind. Of his own flesh he clearly declared it profits for nothing, zero . What does profit is the unseen work of the Spirit of Christ's faith working with the Son as he does with us. This is in order to create the government of God. The government of peace that surpasses our understanding.

Loving authority of the father not seen working in mutual submission with His Son . The one time outward demonstration.

 

[garee]

You may be comforted by that thought, but in the eyes of the Law of Moses, failure to uphold one word is equivalent to failure to uphold all of it. (James 2:10)

The law you referenced (James 2) regarding blasphemy (attribute the work of God not seen to creatures seen )warns us of looking at outward man and attributing the work of the unseen Spirit of Christ that teaches us, comforts and bring to our mind that which he has taught us.

If they did not want to offend God at that point .They would of obeyed the commandment to call no man on earth father or infallible teacher as master (Rabbi)

No man can serve two masters as teaching authorities . (1) The corrupted flesh and (2) the incorruptible Spirit by which all men are born again from above

Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2: 7-10

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Lets go to the passage in question, and analyse it:
Ephesians 2 8 […]
What is the gift? Salvation? No thats not the actual gift. The actual gift is GRACE. […]The end result of living in this grace, when the Lord finally takes you, is everlating life.

Elsewhere, Scripture says, "the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord"; so in...

1 John 5 -

9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony of God that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son.

11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life.
13 I have written these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have [present indicative] eternal life. [not that you will EVENTUALLY receive it, in the by and by ;) ]


...and in...

Ephesians 2:5 it says,

"...(by grace ye are [present indicative] having been saved [PERFECT participle])"


"work OUT your OWN salvation" (not "work FOR your own salvation"), meaning, "work it outwardly" despite the fearful circumstances they found themselves in (this verse should be understood in its context, and part of that context that should impact our "understanding" of this verse, is found in verses 1:12-14 and the other believers whom Paul is holding forth as an example to these he's writing to and saying this to (note the phrase, regarding those he's pointing toward as an example in order to ENCOURAGE them, where it uses the phrase "[and many of the brethren... waxing confident by my bonds], are much more bold to speak the word without fear"... Paul is simply saying, in 2:12 that they didn't need Paul's presence, but could "work out [outwardly] their own salvation [the salvation they possess] WITH fear and trembling" even! This is his exhortation to them (from prison); it is not saying for them to "work FOR their salvation, in hopes they would some day [in the by and by] obtain/receive it"



Also, chk out this article: http://articles.ochristian.com/article12455.shtml

 

[Chris1975]

Elsewhere, Scripture says, "the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord"; so in...

1 John 5 -

9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony of God that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son.

11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life.
13 I have written these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have [present indicative] eternal life. [not that you will EVENTUALLY receive it, in the by and by ;) ]


...and in...

Ephesians 2:5 it says,

"...(by grace ye are [present indicative] having been saved [PERFECT participle])"


"work OUT your OWN salvation" (not "work FOR your own salvation"), meaning, "work it outwardly" despite the fearful circumstances they found themselves in (this verse should be understood in its context, and part of that context that should impact our "understanding" of this verse, is found in verses 1:12-14 and the other believers whom Paul is holding forth as an example to these he's writing to and saying this to (note the phrase, regarding those he's pointing toward as an example in order to ENCOURAGE them, where it uses the phrase "[and many of the brethren... waxing confident by my bonds], are much more bold to speak the word without fear"... Paul is simply saying, in 2:12 that they didn't need Paul's presence, but could "work out [outwardly] their own salvation [the salvation they possess] WITH fear and trembling" even! This is his exhortation to them (from prison); it is not saying for them to "work FOR their salvation, in hopes they would some day [in the by and by] obtain/receive it"



Also, chk out this article: http://articles.ochristian.com/article12455.shtml

At no stage have I mentioned that you word FOR salvation. Feel free to look through all my posts to identify if I have made any such statement. However "Faith without Works" is dead faith and will not save you. Do you see the distinction? Look closer.

 

[Magenta]

Bible doesnt say that conversion happens when the Holy Spirit enters you. The bible says that conversion happens when we believe in Jesus Christ (John 3v16). Holy Spirit is given as a gift to those who believe in Jesus.

Peter was already a believer in Jesus Christ. He left and forsook all to follow Jesus (so quite a commitment, and not the actions of an unbeliever). So this parable is very applicable to Peter.

Hello This is an interesting topic. Peter followed and believed Jesus, but Jesus had not yet shed His righteous blood for the forgiveness of sins, and Peter opposed Jesus' proclaiming the He would go to the cross and be put to death... so it cannot be said that Peter at that time (pre-cross) accepted the shed righteous blood of Chris for the forgiveness of his sins, which is part of what we believe. Ephesians 2:8 says we have been saved, and John 3:16 says nothing about when conversion happens.

 

[garee]

So in light of the above passage, I ask you the question again: So when Jesus says on His return to earth (Luke 18v8), will he even find faith, is he blaming himself?

No blaming but accrediting the faith that belongs to him or born again gift. Will he find it working in the hearts of men to both will and do his good pleasure as a imputed righteousness . or like in the time of Noah every one doing their own desires of their evil hearts .Its the end of time the last day . The next time more than a flood but a new creation not made up of the corruptible rudiments of this world

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Genesis 6

 

[Grandpa]

Lets go to the passage in question, and analyse it:

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

What is the gift? Salvation? No thats not the actual gift. The actual gift is GRACE. You have heard of the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Grace. When we are in God's grace we are positionally saved, but we also work out our salvation through fear and trembling (in this grace). To those who overcome (by Gods grace) He will give to eat from the tree of life. The end result of living in this grace, when the Lord finally takes you, is everlating life. And we remain in this GRACE through our faith (belief in Christ). If we no longer have faith, we are no longer under his grace.

We cannot earn this grace through works. It is accessed through faith.

Hebrews 6v11
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

You are reading it wrong.

Salvation is the gift. By Gods Grace is the way it comes to us. Through Faith.

And it is not of ourselves. Meaning, we can't earn it and we can't maintain it. It is not of ourselves. It is the Gift of God.


So our only Hope is Faith in Christ. Not ourselves. Not our work. Not our understanding. The Author and Finisher of our Faith and subsequent Salvation.

 

[Grandpa]

Read the parable again. The servant is thrown into jail.

Yes. It is the description of achieving entrance into the Kingdom of God through perfect obedience of the Law.

We failed at that. A myriad of times.


So God, in His Mercy, provided a New Way. He gives entrance into His Kingdom as a gift through Faith in Christ.

This New Way is the only possible way for us to enter His Kingdom.

Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Jimbone]

Matthew 18
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

• So let’s try get everybody on the same page. Can we all agree that Peter is a believer?
• Can we agree that Peter is included in the Kingdom of God (because he is a believer)
• Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
• Jesus answers him and says seventy times seven. So basically unending. Continue to forgive.

Assuming we are on the same page up to this point, let’s go further and into the parable that follows.

• We have a King and a Kingdom. This can be seen in parable terms as Jesus and His Kingdom
• We have a subject of the kingdom (a servant) who owed the king a huge debt (v23). In parable terms we as his subjects had a huge debt (sin)
• The subject pleaded for the Kings mercy (prayer, repentance, faith) (v26)
• The loving King has mercy and compassion, and wiped clean the debt (v27). In parable terms this is the Lord forgiving our sins. This is included in the Lord’s Grace.
• Can we agree up to this point that the only those who have come to Christ, and pleaded for mercy have received the Lords grace, and the forgiveness of sins. I am not aware of the unbelievers sin being washed clean, only the believers sin. It’s no use saying this servant is “not really” a servant or subject of the king. Because he truly has had his debt wiped clean.
• In parable terms, the servant is already in the kingdom, and the servant has had his sins washed clean.

So far so good. Let’s not forget that Jesus is still answering Peter’s question (Peter being a servant of the King in the kingdom)

• Now we see that same servant whose debt was cleared, go out and demand that another fellowservant pay him an even smaller amount owed to him, and when he could not, was thrown into prison. In parable terms, this is exactly the same as a Christian who has had such great sins forgiven by the Lord, but yet unwilling to extend the same mercy, forgiveness and grace to a fellow servant.
• And we see the end result of what that got this servant. Once the King hear about what happened, he REINSTATED the debt that was due on the first servant. What was forgiven, WAS NO LONGER FORGIVEN.
• And we end off with the last verse, verse 35, which states the following: 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.

• Was Peter a believer? Yes.
• Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
• Should Peter forgive others? Yes
• What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
• Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?

I have a question, why are you trying to prove the powerlessness of God? Why do you want to highlight man's ability to reject Gods gift even after we have received it? I can truly say the whole "men can be saved by the power of God, by the power of Jesus and then forsake Him, completely baffles me. Why do you want to even argue this?

That aside, what do we do with these verses?
John 10:28-29
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 10:28
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 10:29
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

John 6:39
This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Do we just ignore these? One last question I like to ask people who argue that you can lose salvation, just like I did at first. Could you turn from Him?

 

[Chris1975]

I have a question, why are you trying to prove the powerlessness of God? Why are you asserting this. I have done no such thing. Why do you want to highlight man's ability to reject Gods gift even after we have received it? Because many, after having given their lives to God, turn back to their old lives. Like the proverb says in 2 Peter 2 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” I can truly say the whole "men can be saved by the power of God, by the power of Jesus and then forsake Him, completely baffles me. Why do you want to even argue this? Just given you the scriptures in 2 Peter 2 v22. Unless you want to deny this, then that's up to you.

That aside, what do we do with these verses?
John 10:28-29
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Nobody can snatch you away. But you can walk away yourself. Therein lies the distinction.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Hebrews 3
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Belief is equated to obedience

John 10:28
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
as above

John 10:29
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
as above

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Exactly.

John 6:39
This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
For sure. God doesn't want you to be lost. Nor does He want you to walk away from Faith in Him.

Do we just ignore these? One last question I like to ask people who argue that you can lose salvation, just like I did at first. Could you turn from Him? Yes, unfortunately you can.

In RED above.

 

[Jimbone]

In RED above.

So what if I just take my scripture and say it cancels all yours out? This is not a strong case at all in my opinion. You have to take them together, the truth is in the middle. But also know I am NOT advocating a "card punch" salivation that frees me to sin all I want. If you are in Him you will be changed, but I'm also not walking around wondering if I'm still saved now after anything I may do sinful. See what I mean? You can no more be "un"reborn than you can be unborn, just can't go back.

 

[Chris1975]

So what if I just take my scripture and say it cancels all yours out? This is not a strong case at all in my opinion. You have to take them together, the truth is in the middle. But also know I am NOT advocating a "card punch" salivation that frees me to sin all I want. If you are in Him you will be changed, but I'm also not walking around wondering if I'm still saved now after anything I may do sinful. See what I mean? You can no more be "un"reborn than you can be unborn, just can't go back.

2 Peter 3v9 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Nobody said you were un-reborn. But the above scripture holds true.

 

[Jimbone]

2 Peter 3v9 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Nobody said you were un-reborn. But the above scripture holds true.

But there are even more that say things like "If they went from us they were never of us", and what about when our King Himself say's "On that day MANY will come saying "Lord, Lord", but I will tell them "I NEVER knew you".

You say "Nobody said you were un-reborn". Well if you lose salvation wouldn't that be what happen, you stuff yourself back into spiritual death?

I thought of something for this debate strait up, a challenge for anyone who promotes that you can lose salvation, something "you" did nothing to gain yourself at all by the way. I say put your "spirit where your mouth is", and prove it. I say you cannot reject salvation, I say that once you are in Jesus hands NO ONE can snatch you out, I say if you are in Him you can't deny Him, and testify I am His with no fear of ever losing it. I don't have the burden on my back to worry if my last slip up was enough to cancel my salvation out, or if I'm doing enough to make sure I'm still good. See what preaching this leads too? But all this said now back the challenge. Do it. If you're so sure that we can reject the gift that God gave us, then prove it right now and renounce Him and declare you're no longer His. Show me. If you can't then it backs up my view more than your. Think about it. I was one that said this same thing that you'll have to say when I believed this way, "I believe man has free will and can choose to walk away from Jesus after being truly born again. I don't see how anyone could ever do that, I could never do that, but I think it can happen". It's only empty conjecture, from my perspective.

You can't build your whole case on this hypothetical man that makes these few scripture work, outside of everything else written. It HAS to all be taken together, I know this "challenge" is a little tongue in cheek, but it is to make a serious point, if you can't do it then there is no way you can say that someone else could, and John tells us even if you do leave you were never of us, as does Jesus, even when they really really thought they were, and did the work to "prove" it.

I now see it differently and do not believe in "free will" the way you're presenting it. Jesus tells us clearly that we are slaves, either slaves to sin, or slaves of His, but slaves none the less. Do we have choice? Of course we do, but I believe we will have one of 2 natures that dictate the bounds of these choices. There are things we would not even see as bad in our sin nature that we would NEVER do in the Spirit, and vice versa, so in this sense I do not believe in "free will" the way you describe it, I believe in His will, if you will.

 

[Jimbone]

2 Peter 3v9 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Nobody said you were un-reborn. But the above scripture holds true.

I also thought of this simple argument. If Jesus says we must be born again to enter His kingdom, and we are born again, and here you're claiming you didn't say "you were un-reborn", then we agree right? If you are born again, and can't be unborn again then where is the rub here? Where you only saying you didn't say that to technically score a point and really do believe it, or are we in agreement now?