John 3:16-18 is not about God's universal love (there is no such thing).

[Magenta]

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Very truly
I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only
a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. Anyone who loves their life
will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal
life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be.
My Father will honor the one who serves me.

“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’?
No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” The crowd
that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for
judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. And
I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

John 12:23-32

 

[selfdissolving]

In the OT sin offerings, the blood of the animal sacrifices was used to make atonement for sins. The animal would suffer the penalty for the sins committed by the one making the offering. Thus the one making the offering would not be brought into judgement for those sins, because they had been atoned for.

THE SAME THING IS TRUE OF THE PERFECT ATONEMENT OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS. He suffered the penalty for the sins of his people. Those sins are atoned for. The wrath of God has been satisfied completely!

So how can you say that he atoned for the sins of all people, yet the majority of people throughout history are still going to hell?

Did he atone for their sins or not? Were the sins of the whole world laid on his body on the cross or not?

If you say that he paid the price for the sins of all mankind, but that you have to first choose to apply the atonement to yourself, YOU HAVE REALLY BAD THEOLOGY. He either atoned for your sins on the cross and they are forgiven, or he didn't and they aren't! IT'S THAT SIMPLE!

Your personal choice doesn't change what happened on the cross. Jesus Christ saved his people from their sins by his shed blood. And the ones whom he saved are the ones that were chosen in him from before the foundation of the world.

That's Biblical fact Jack!!!!!!!!

 

[selfdissolving]

Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Very truly
I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only
a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. Anyone who loves their life
will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal
life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be.
My Father will honor the one who serves me.

“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’?
No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” The crowd
that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for
judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. And
I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

John 12:23-32

We either have a contradiction of Scripture here, or one of us is misinterpreting the Bible.

"All people" in the passage you quoted cannot mean every single individual, because that contradicts many other parts of the Bible. It means all people without distinction, e.g. both Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, man and women, smart and dumb, etc.

If we are going to claim that it means every individual, then we have to include every last person on this planet, including people who never heard the gospel and also people who rejected it such as the Pharisees and scribes.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

I have a really hard time believing all non-Christians (most of the world) go to hell.

 

[Magenta]

If Jesus dies for the sins of the "whole world" as Arminians understand it, then did his death actually pay the price for the sins of all people? Did he bear those sins on the cross and atone for them? If so, why do some go to hell? They would be repaying a price that has already been paid.

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ bore the sins of the redeemed in his body on the cross:
1 Peter 2:24
"He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed."

So how do unbelievers end up in hell?

You seem to be leaving out the matter of belief

 

[pottersclay]

Jacob I love.... Esau I hate ..... seems to be one of the most misunderstood scripture in the Bible.

Jacob after wrestling with the Lord repented and asked (actually begged) for a blessing

Esau gave up his birth right for a bowl of food and planned to kill his brother after his father's death.

 

[selfdissolving]

You seem to be leaving out the matter of belief

nope.
saving faith is a gift from God given to his elect who's sins Jesus atoned for on the cross.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

all of God's elect are eventually justified

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[selfdissolving]

Jacob I love.... Esau I hate ..... seems to be one of the most misunderstood scripture in the Bible.

Jacob after wrestling with the Lord repented and asked (actually begged) for a blessing

Esau gave up his birth right for a bowl of food and planned to kill his brother after his father's death.

Romans 9:11-13
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[JohnRH]

Hello, fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, saved objects of eternal just wrath to grace.

Here is what John 3:16-18 is really saying and implying, alot of people have it wrong and its important.

John 3:16-18 (the text itself)
16 “For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


Here is a Paraphrase:

(Paraphrase: express the meaning of (something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity)

Paraphrase:
GOD + LOVE + WORLD, World being: not just Israel, but also GENTILES.....indeed.... the Jews believed that the world was cursed by God and they were God's people, its quite to shock to Nicodemus the Pharisee........That God loves is to the world and not just Chosen Israel.

So WORLD doesn't mean universalism (false sinful doctrine), its talking about God's LOVE to the WORLD (not just Israel).

Okay, continuing on... God's LOVE is manifested in the cross THAT.. [THE ALL WHO BELIEVE] should not perish but have eternal life, that's correct! AKA the ALL who are believing, there is no WHOSOEVER in the greek...

Its the ONES that BELIEVE, which denotes a group... aka all the believing ones, like i said, there is NO WHOSOEVER in the text, its a bad word to use, so when you read that word you might think....... that MAN can believe and repent outside the elect grace of GOD, which is not true.

Anyway continuing: Verse 17: For God did not send his SON into the world to condemn the world, this is what they believed (the Jews), that God has come to bless them and curse the gentiles, BUT Jesus is saying NO....... I did not come to CONDEMN but to save the World (the world being not just Israel)... then to finish it up he says..... Verse 18: whosoever..... which is not implying that everyone can believe, but that THE EVERYONE WHO IS BELIEVING.... there is a difference.

Everyone who is believing shall be saved and SO this in no way contradicts or destroys election (we know only the elect do believe, believing is the result of the new birth and the new birth is the result of God's election).

So the point is that God doesn't Love the WHOOOOLEE WORLD........Its not implying that!.......WORLD does not mean every individual of the world that has every existed........ something that is a contradiction of much of the bible!....... aka Romans 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

If God loves the whole world, then the whole world would be saved.... duuuuurrrrr....

Anyway enjoy. I hope its a help to you in Christ, i also hope this is an encouragement for Calvinistic-Brothers/Sisters an edification and also a help to Arminians-Brothers/Sisters to see their error in this area and repent.

Universal:
For God so loved every human - including Esau, Pharoah, Judas, the beast, the false prophet, and every human who will be spending eternity in the lake of fire – that He gave His only begotten Son for each one of them

Particular:
so that any one of them who believes in Him during their brief season of opportunity to believe in Him – before it’s forever too late - should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[mailmandan]

I have a really hard time believing all non-Christians (most of the world) go to hell.

Matthew 7:13 - “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[fredoheaven]

If you say that he paid the price for the sins of all mankind, but that you have to first choose to apply the atonement to yourself, YOU HAVE REALLY BAD THEOLOGY. He either atoned for your sins on the cross and they are forgiven, or he didn't and they aren't! IT'S THAT SIMPLE!

/QUOTE]

" He either atoned for your sins on the cross and they are forgiven, or he didn't and they aren't!" This is also a bad theology, for the atonement is condition on faith. "Faithless" theology is not a sound doctrine. The Atonement is sufficient for all men, but it is efficient only for those who believe! In other words, atonement extend to all but the benefits would be given to those 'whosoever' will received it.

Romans 5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[fredoheaven]

Your personal choice doesn't change what happened on the cross. Jesus Christ saved his people from their sins by his shed blood. And the ones whom he saved are the ones that were chosen in him from before the foundation of the world.

That's Biblical fact Jack!!!!!!!!

The underlined therefore exclude faith and what about a Spirit led choice not a 'personal' choice as you are saying. Faith upon hearing the word of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In the OT sin offerings, the blood of the animal sacrifices was used to make atonement for sins. The animal would suffer the penalty for the sins committed by the one making the offering. Thus the one making the offering would not be brought into judgement for those sins, because they had been atoned for.

THE SAME THING IS TRUE OF THE PERFECT ATONEMENT OF CHRIST ON THE CROSS. He suffered the penalty for the sins of his people. Those sins are atoned for. The wrath of God has been satisfied completely!

So how can you say that he atoned for the sins of all people, yet the majority of people throughout history are still going to hell?

Did he atone for their sins or not? Were the sins of the whole world laid on his body on the cross or not?

If you say that he paid the price for the sins of all mankind, but that you have to first choose to apply the atonement to yourself, YOU HAVE REALLY BAD THEOLOGY. He either atoned for your sins on the cross and they are forgiven, or he didn't and they aren't! IT'S THAT SIMPLE!

Your personal choice doesn't change what happened on the cross. Jesus Christ saved his people from their sins by his shed blood. And the ones whom he saved are the ones that were chosen in him from before the foundation of the world.

That's Biblical fact Jack!!!!!!!!

Jesus said it himself

all sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven, but blasphemy against the spirit shall never be forgiven

jesus paid the penalty of sin, but he did not pay the price for unbelief, in unbelief, we declare the HS, who gave us the word and convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, as Paul said in romans, no one has an excuse because they all know God, but have chosen to reject him

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Every perversion of the Gospel ultimately comes from Satan. Satan hates the pure Gospel of Grace and does not want to see anyone saved. So Calvinism hides the heart of God and replaces it with the throne of God.

As you say, if Calvinism were true there would be no need for the Gospel. The elect would be saved regardless, and the non-elect would be damned regardless. After all the *God of Calvinism* has already decreed this.

The inspired word of God, including the gospels, were not written to the un-saved, but to the saved. There is a need for preaching the gospel. The gospel does not instruct us on how to get saved eternally, but informs us how that Christ saved us on the cross. Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep (God's elect believers) who are babes in Christ, preaching to them the meat of the word which causes them to grow in the knowledge of the word, allowing them to understand that they have the imputed righteousness of Christ, and do not have to go about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works. The bible is an instruction book telling us how we are to live our lives while we sojourn here on earth.

 

[selfdissolving]

Jesus said it himself

all sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven, but blasphemy against the spirit shall never be forgiven

jesus paid the penalty of sin, but he did not pay the price for unbelief, in unbelief, we declare the HS, who gave us the word and convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, as Paul said in romans, no one has an excuse because they all know God, but have chosen to reject him

so if he did not pay the price for unbelief, all Christians stand condemned for the unbelief they had before they were saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We experience salvation and rebirth in a place

so if he did not pay the price for unbelief, all Christians stand condemned for the unbelief they had before they were saved.

If you notice

when Jesus said that, the people he said it to commited that very sin

jesus told them they were in danger.

we have until we die to repent. That is christs promise

he who believes has eternal life, he who does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God abides,

it is our faith in his claim of our guilty his righteous judgment and promise of eternal life based on his sons atoning sacrifice which saves us,

 

[selfdissolving]

As you say, if Calvinism were true there would be no need for the Gospel. The elect would be saved regardless, and the non-elect would be damned regardless. After all the *God of Calvinism* has already decreed this.

The gospel is the means by which the elect are saved.
Understanding the doctrines of grace empowers evangelism, not undermines it!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The underlined therefore exclude faith and what about a Spirit led choice not a 'personal' choice as you are saying. Faith upon hearing the word of God.

 

[selfdissolving]

If you notice

when Jesus said that, the people he said it to commited that very sin

jesus told them they were in danger.

we have until we die to repent. That is christs promise

he who believes has eternal life, he who does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God abides,

it is our faith in his claim of our guilty his righteous judgment and promise of eternal life based on his sons atoning sacrifice which saves us,

it is the actual work of Christ on the cross which purchased our salvation. The atonement itself. not our work of choosing to believe.

also, you're wrenching the Scripture out of context and misapplying it. The unpardonable sin is attributing the works of God to the devil. The Pharisees were guilty of this because they said that Jesus performed his miracles by the power of Beelzebub.

The person who believes this can never be forgiven because not only do they have unbelief concerning the person and work of Jesus Christ, but have actually gone from simple unbelief to a conscious belief that God is evil.

A person who believes that God is the devil will NEVER trust in the Lord nor submit to him!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Every perversion of the Gospel ultimately comes from Satan. Satan hates the pure Gospel of Grace and does not want to see anyone saved. So Calvinism hides the heart of God and replaces it with the throne of God.

As you say, if Calvinism were true there would be no need for the Gospel. The elect would be saved regardless, and the non-elect would be damned regardless. After all the *God of Calvinism* has already decreed this.

The underlined therefore exclude faith and what about a Spirit led choice not a 'personal' choice as you are saying. Faith upon hearing the word of God.

Our Spirit led choices only come after we are born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2, When we were still dead (spiritually) in sins and unable to respond to the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14. The natural man has no choice in becoming spiritual, and therefore, has no choice in his eternal deliverance. Only his sheep will hear his voice.