Not By Works

Judges1318 · Dec 22, 2019

The hardening of the heart to unbelief, whether through a conscious decision to depart, or through the deceitfulness of sin takes some time. It doesn't happen in an instant.

Obviously, Christ doesn't forsake those who forsake him the instant they forsake him in unbelief. We know this from the example of the Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Hebrew church. God made his plea through the Apostles to come back to the faith in Christ they had abandoned. If he was a legalist who forsook the person who forsook him the moment they did that, as you are erroneously suggesting our doctrine makes him, then there would be no books in the Bible called Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, or Hebrews.

All of those are letters are to people the letters themselves say were real believers but who had fallen away and to whom God was extending the hand of restoration. That doesn't fit into once saved always saved doctrine, but there it is right there in the pages of our Bibles.

Chris1975 · Dec 22, 2019

gb9 said:

For sure. Sheep and Goats. Wheat and Chaff.

dcontroversal · Dec 22, 2019

Chris1975 said:

Well lets look at the above quoted Red text and post the scriptures and interpretation thereof:

2 Timothy 2

11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
If we nail our old man to the cross (Romans 6), we consider ourselves dead to sin but alive in Christ Jesus

12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
We are to Endure to the end...…..Rev 2v7, Rev2v11, Rev2v17, Rev2v25-26, Rev3v5, Rev 3v12, Rev3v21

If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
Peter denied Him 3 times. He repented and confirmed his Love 3 times to Jesus on the beach (feed my sheep...)

13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
Matthew Henry says this best:
(v. 13): If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful; he cannot deny himself. He is faithful to his threatenings, faithful to his promises; neither one nor the other shall fall to the ground, no, not the least, jot nor tittle of them. If we be faithful to Christ, he will certainly be faithful to us. If we be false to him, he will be faithful to his threatenings: he cannot deny himself, cannot recede from any word that he hath spoken, for he is yea, and amen, the faithful witness. Observe, (1.) Our being dead with Christ precedes our living with him, and is connected with it: the one is in order to the other; so our suffering for him is the way to reign with him. You that have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel Mt. 19:28 . (2.) This is a faithful saying, and may be depended on and ought to be believed. But, (3.) If we deny him, out of fear, or shame, or for the sake of some temporal advantage, he will deny and disown us, and will not deny himself, but will continue faithful to his word when he threatens as well as when he promises.

Listen clown.....Peter never lost his salvation and I could care less what Matthew Henry has to say......

dcontroversal · Dec 22, 2019

Chris1975 said:

False on every front........I hear the circus is looking for clowns....you should apply

Chris1975 · Dec 22, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Loving words I see. Well done.
Where did I say Peter lost his salvation. Never did. Read again.
Matthew Henry, I can assure you, has significantly more insight into this matter than you do.

Chris1975 · Dec 22, 2019

dcontroversal said:

You are in the flesh now. And have no conviction about it. That's why OSAS is dangerous. You are a living example.

NayborBear · Dec 22, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Yep! Yer right dcontroversal! God shall finish and complete the work of faith that began in Christ. But, this is where you OSAS people "get off the rail", so to speak. And, the cause for so much misunderstanding. As y'all ASSUME, AND TEACH OTHERS, this is completed before you "go to sleep with yer fathers." But, scripture doesn't say, nor infer such a thing!
It can be done before dying. It's called this:
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Judges1318 · Dec 22, 2019

Hevosmies said:

That's close to how I actually view it.

My opinion is the willful sinning being spoken of here is more of the willful un-coerced decision to abandon belief in Christ for the forgiveness of one's sin and not necessarily specific sins done on purpose, although specific willful sins would definitely accompany the person who willfully walks away from faith in Christ.

Either way, the passage is a plain read. The person sanctified in Christ unto salvation who tramples on the blood of Christ through which he was sanctified, treating it as if it was no different than any other blood, will suffer the same fate as the enemies of God.

Chris1975 · Dec 22, 2019

1 Timothy 4
16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Judges1318 · Dec 22, 2019

Chris1975 said:

It does seem that many who believe in once saved always saved simply don't live holy lives--though they are usually very active in church activities, and seem to take a false comfort from that. They seem very comfortable with living in sin, even though with their mouth they claim they would not be comfortable with living in sin, and that God will definitely punish the person who does that, while they don't get punished for doing that.

I'm convinced that once saved always saved is not the narrow and holy road to salvation that they claim it is. It seems to be going in the opposite direction....the wide and easy direction.

Judges1318 · Dec 22, 2019

Hevosmies said:

It is in fact the very proof text in all the Bible that convinces me that salvation can be lost. And it's that with no twisting whatsoever.

VCO · Dec 22, 2019

TooFastTurtle said:

Could I get into this conversation, too? I hope you do mind?

I will post the most frequent verses that support OSAS, in a separate Post after this post.

But your question of the two portions of Scripture should be answered first, AND we must realize that Mat. 7:13-27, has a lot to do with it.

In Gal. 5:19-21 you absolutely have to read the THE WHOLE CONTEXT, to precisely understand what HE IS SAYING.

Galatians 5:11-26 (HCSB)
11 Now brothers, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.
12 I wish those who are disturbing you might also get themselves castrated!
13 For you were called to be free, brothers; only don’t use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love.
14 For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself.
15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another.
16 I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions,
21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is [Agape, Rom. 5:5] love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit.
26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Now it is much easier to understand what Paul is saying. He is confronting Judaisers, who were falsely saying men had to Circumcised before they can become a Christian. All he was saying is exactly what JESUS taught in Mat. Chapter 7. That when you truly have COME to KNOW HIM intimately, receiving HIM as LORD, meaning MASTER; that BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE will change you, because YOU will have a NEW NATURE in your Human Spirit. The verses you quoted are the typical old Nature of someone who has NOT been Born Again. The NATURE, is the DOMINANT LIFESTYLE CHARACTERISTICS, of the person in question. YES, we SIN, but as a Christian Matures, we will sin LESS, and LESS, and LESS. It is not the DOMINANT LIFESTYLE CHARACTERISTICS to continue to SIN like the Old Human Nature.

Matthew 7:23 (HCSB)
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

That is referring to the Born Again experience, when the Holy Spirit birthed our Human Spirit, and gave it a NEW NATURE, which is described in Gal. 5:22-26.

Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

Christ said we can recognize whether or not a person has been Born Again, just by examining their FRUIT. FIRST you have to realize a baby Christian does not produce much fruit. So you have to watch someone for maybe a year or more to find out if the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT, is starting to manifest itself. If you see NOTHING but bad fruit such as an unhealthy interest in:
hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, etc.; then you can be certain that they have never been born again, YET. If you can detect Self Sacrificial love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control, as their New Nature, even if in your opinion they have some things wrong, you should respect him as a Christian Brother.

Your other question on 1 Corinthians 6:9-11:

There are a number of SINS listed in these verses, but remember they are not one time sins, but they are UNREPENTANT, or LIFESTYLE OF SINNING. A great deal of confusion between the GREEK TEXT and the ENGLISH TEXT lies in the FACT, that the Greeks have six Primary Verb Tenses, where as in English, we only have three Primary Verb Tenses. Such a verb is:

1 John 2:4 (HCSB)
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

That Greek Verb "Keep", does not imply PERFECTION, but an ongoing lifestyle of striving to KEEP. So English is a POOR Language at Best, to translate the Bible into. No I am not a Greek Scholar, but I know the TOOLS and How to look the TENSES up in them.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (HCSB)
9 Don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,
10 no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom.
11 And some of you used to be like this. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Therefore the first clue to how to properly interpret these scriptures, is the WORD unrighteous. Paul knows and preached that we inherit the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ, when we are Born Again. Therefore he is talking about Unrepentant Sinners that have NEVER BEEN SAVED. AND some of us USED TO LIKE THAT. But we were Born Again, and now our NEW NATURE in our HUMAN SPIRIT, is Characterized by the FRUIT of the SPIRIT: Agape love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control, and the like. Remember A Born Again Christian is one who sins LESS, and Less, and LESS.

And you may want to say, "But what about verses that seem to imply a Christian does not SIN."

1 Thessalonians 4:7 (HCSB)
7 For God has not called us to impurity but to sanctification.

Sanctification is a lifelong process where we will strive to get the SIN out of our lives, and we will not be perfect until the we get the Glorified Body, in the Resurrection. Interestingly, the New Century Version, words that verse this way:

1 Thessalonians 4:7 (NCV)
7 God called us to be holy and does not want us to live in sin.

Romans 6:12 (ESV)
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

Again it does not mean we can be SINLESS, but it does mean we do not let it Reign or Dominate us.

1 John 3:9 (HCSB)
9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.

Again that does not imply PERFECTION, but a Lifestyle of Striving to do no sin, even though we are not PERFECT. You will find that John is VERY FOND of the Greek Perfect Tense (not the English meaning of that word perfection), but HE USES IT A LOT, and also the AORIST TENSE, which carries a similar Meaning. Neither of which we have in ENGLISH.

I will post the PRIMARY Verses that SUPPORT OSAS FAITH, in my next Post.

Judges1318 · Dec 22, 2019

mailmandan said:

But your explanation changes the original Greek. That's the problem with your argument. You have been unable to reconcile your argument with the actual Greek.

gb9 · Dec 22, 2019

Chris1975 said:

thanks for the straight answer. those are hard to get on here.

so, then what is the problem? Saul was not a true believer, God eventually departed him. David was a true believer, God stayed with him through his bad moments.

dcontroversal · Dec 22, 2019

NayborBear said:

Yep! Yer right dcontroversal! God shall finish and complete the work of faith that began in Christ. But, this is where you OSAS people "get off the rail", so to speak. And, the cause for so much misunderstanding. As y'all ASSUME, AND TEACH OTHERS, this is completed before you "go to sleep with yer fathers." But, scripture doesn't say, nor infer such a thing!
It can be done before dying. It's called this:
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Nice try, but false....the work of faith he began in US <-----KEY WORD.....US!!!

Hevosmies · Dec 22, 2019

dcontroversal said:

LOL work of faith that began in Christ

This forum is GREAT

RebuildJesussChurch · Dec 22, 2019

Chris1975 said:

2 out of 66 books of the Bible are named after him and still this gets said to him.

RebuildJesussChurch · Dec 22, 2019

dcontroversal said:

“Tell My disciples AND Peter”, Jesus said. Tell My disciples and tell Peter too, in other words.

Peter was going to have to undo what he had said.

Discern · Dec 22, 2019

Judges1318 said:

We are made partakers (apodosis) if we hold fast (protasis)

Of course if some of the receivers of the letter were never made partakers, they would not hold fast. They would fall away from a profession of faith.

That is why the verb "hold fast" is subjunctive. If the protasis is not true, then it follows that the apodosis is not true. Very simple. If the protasis (if we hold fast) is not true, then the apodosis "we have been made partakers of Christ is not true.

In other words, if they/we do not hold fast, they/we were not made partakers (perfect tense, past completed action).

If we believe, we have eternal life. The verb believe is going to be subjunctive. We may or may not believe. If we believe is the protasis, we have eternal life is the apodosis. Same construction that you see in Hebrews 3:6 and Hebrews 3:14. It is so simple, I can't imagine why some don't get it.

.

dcontroversal · Dec 22, 2019

RebuildJesussChurch said:

not hardly clown...this does not equate to Peter losing anything....try again......

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