How to make an atheist feel the nearness of Jesus without using the Bible...

1still_waters · Mar 30, 2011

I rarely engage atheists in debates about our faith. But I have a classmate friend of mine from school who happens to be an atheist, and I decided to engage him. Needless to say I had to engage in some adhoc apologetics.

Anyways this atheist was trying to dismiss the Bible and was saying all we have with on history of the early church is verbally handed down legend, or information only found in the Bible. Basically he wouldn't accept that real apostles existed who saw Jesus and he didn't seem to accept that Jesus himself existed. He seemed to indicate that any bible accounts of the early Christians in the bible couldn't be trusted because it was just the Bible.

So I had to find a quick way to make him feel the literal footsteps of Jesus.

I asked him................

1. Is there historical evidence that an emperor named Nero persecuted and killed Christians around 64-68 ad?

The obvious answer from him was yes!

Ok good!

So we have Christians existing, accounted for, outside of a biblical source.

On top of that we have historical evidence outside the Bible of people believing and dying for the cause of Christ before the formation of the roman cath church in 300ish ad. This is key because atheists love to talk about how people simply believe because of lies told because of the catholic church.

Well these early Christians believed 200ish years before the catholics got a chance to brain wash anyone.

Ok so the claim is that Jesus existed from 0sh ad to 33ish ad and that he rose from the dead.

So we have these Christians being persecuted in 64-68 ad, 30ish years from the time Jesus is said to have risen from the dead.

Well just how in the world did these Christians get the message and believe it, about a guy named Jesus who rose from the dead? They must have gotten it from somewhere! And we know it wasn't from some lies created by the catholic church, so who in the world could they have heard it from????

Ohh.........maybe from living contemporaries of Jesus, called apostles who saw his risen self years before!!

And where did these apostles get this message they were speaking and willing to die for???

Not the Catholic church!

Most likely from a guy named JESUS!!!!

This conclusion is 100% reachable just by looking at history books then deducing the most logical explanation possible.

The persecuted Christians got their message from some apostles..............apostles got their message from JESUS...........

I pictured my atheist friend as kind of like a wide receiver who goes up to catch the ball, then hears the footsteps of the cornerback...and gets rattled...........

This simple historical evidence made him hear the footsteps of Jesus loud and clear.

zeroturbulence · Mar 30, 2011

Its futile because its like trying to prove that God is real. You can prove Jesus existed (the year 2011 for example is based on the year of Christ's birth), and there are supposedly records since Joseph and Mary did register him in Jerusalem's census, although they were living in Nazareth at that time to avoid King Herod.

But I don't think there's a way to prove without a doubt that Jesus is the messiah or else we'd be using that argument to convert all the Jews.

seoulsearch · Mar 30, 2011

This is a really good question and unfortunately, I don't have a good answer. I've had several friends/acquaintances who were atheists over the years... I remember one in college who was actually majoring in theology because, while claiming to not believe in anything in particular, he was interested in various religious beliefs across cultures.

I've never really tried to engage an atheist (or agnostic) in a "real" conversation about God, I suppose? I would just kind of talk to them as I would any of my other friends... tell them about my church activities or whatever... and the things I prayed about... Sometimes I'd invite them to church or a social gathering at church, and I know it sounds cliche, but would pray that maybe a door in their heart would open.

Other than that, I'm at a loss for good ideas--I'd never be able to make a good historical debate or discussion with anyone, seeing as I'm not very good with history!

Ironically, (as we Christians know), atheists are used by God even if they don't want to be. I had a very serious incident occur in my life several years back, and it was my atheist friend who made the phone call that saved my life.

seoulsearch · Mar 30, 2011

Actually, now that I think about it... I can faintly remember a time when a bunch of the people I worked with had agreed to go to church together up at college--it was so long ago, I can't remember if we went to the church I was currently going to, or if we picked another "random" church that none of us were familiar with, but I DO remember this particular guy going along who claimed to not believe in anything but was getting a degree in theology (of the group, I think I was the only one was was raised a Christian).

Everything seemed to go fairly well... and as soon as we got outside, he lit up a cigarette (of course I don't condone smoking but I realize it's a struggle for many believers and non-believers as well), and one of the elders of the church yelled at him and told him he couldn't smoke on church property (this was in 1994 or so... when the smoking bans in the state weren't as strict as they are now.)

I just remember thinking... Oh man... what an impression to make. I mean, sure, I can understand about having rules, but... it just seemed a little depressing to me: "Welcome to our church! We're so glad you came to learn about the love of God today... Wait a minute? What's that? Put that dirty, sinful cigarette out immediately, you unworthy heathen!"

The guy took it very well, all things considered... but, truth be told, I think I was a little embarrassed to try to ask him to church again.

NodMyHeadLikeYeah · Mar 30, 2011

I would never engage an athiest, mormon, catholic, anyone for that matter in a debate about God. Im just not the type of person that enjoys stuff like that, and im not confrentational.

I have heard christians talk about they wanna ''battle'' athiests. Im thinkin, what, why would you do that. Our mission is not to start fights with athiests, and thats what it ultimately becomes.. an Im right and your Wrong war.

Sharing our faith is one thing, but going for the purpose of just wanting to prove someone wrong is another.

Thats my peace on it.

1still_waters · Mar 30, 2011

NodMyHeadLikeYeah said:

I would never engage an athiest, mormon, catholic, anyone for that matter in a debate about God. Im just not the type of person that enjoys stuff like that, and im not confrentational.

I have heard christians talk about they wanna ''battle'' athiests. Im thinkin, what, why would you do that. Our mission is not to start fights with athiests, and thats what it ultimately becomes.. an Im right and your Wrong war.

Sharing our faith is one thing, but going for the purpose of just wanting to prove someone wrong is another.

Thats my peace on it.

*claps*

*sneezes*

oops must be spring..

NodMyHeadLikeYeah · Mar 30, 2011

I will take both the clapping and sneezing as compliments!!

Jullianna · Mar 30, 2011

I was in the Bible study room the other day and I saw a young christian guy say exactly what Nod was just talking about...he was chomping at the bit to battle the atheist who was in the room, which is exactly the effect the atheist wanted. We simply reminded the young man that while we MUST STAND for the Truth, the battle belongs to the Lord, and we have to do it the Lord's way.

I do run into atheists from time to time. How they present themselves determines how I will engage them. If the person describes him/herself as an atheist, but is still desiring to learn about matters of faith (like one of the students seoulsearch described), it seems to me that person is more agnostic than atheist. I've had amazing, respectful conversations with folks like this. I don't know how many came to the Lord down the road; but it they didn't, it wasn't because they'd never been told about the loving, saving grace and mercy of Jesus Christ.

And then there is the atheist who is gunning for a fight...like the one who popped into the chatroom. When that happens, I remember a few things:

1. Sun Tzu (in the Art of War) indicated that we should determine our opponent's greatest need and deny them that. The thing a mocking atheist wants most is to cause a child of God to become frustrated and angry. The wearing out of the saints is one of satan's specialties, so I love denying him that.

2. God is not mocked. The person is not attacking me, he/she is attacking God. The person WILL learn the Truth at some point (hopefully in this lifetime) and WILL bow his/her knee before my God.

3. In Matthew 5, Jesus said:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

When we respond lovingly, as stilly has been attempting to with his friend for several days now (though we know stilly's most endearing quality is his lovingly warped sense of humor haha), we are showing the love that Jesus said we would be known by. It's the response most atheists I've come into contact with dread most. Why? Because they know they've found the real deal, not someone playing the role of a christian. That sort of person is not easily shaken. It's tough for someone who THINKS they know something to try to argue against something the other person KNOWS to be true, and who KNOWS the God the atheist is attempting to deny.

Bottom line... we do ALL things in love. When we are hidden in Christ, there's no other way to be effective. If we wanna help them feel the nearness of Jesus, we need to show them Jesus in us.

Credo_ut_Intelligam · Mar 30, 2011

Take a look at the thread "What does this mean?" in the Bible discussion forum. I haven't read all the responses there, but I read several skimmed over the discussion. I think the person asking the question received a lot of responses that miss the mark, are just plain bad, or are incomplete. A lot of Christians haven't thought about these issues; although, a lot of have heard slogans and when the issue comes up they repeat the slogans without giving much thought to it. But most of the slogans don't hold up under scrutiny or are incomplete. And so, when pressed, they come up empty handed.

Unless someone comes along who has studied the issue and the objections and is willing to engage the person, he may abandon "Christianity" as he perceives it. If he continues in the faith, it may be a weakened or anti-intellectual sort of "I don't know why God said these things, but oh well..." faith. This person isn't alone. At the beginning of last year, a 16 year old girl wrote: "I've been doing some serious questioning... I went from Christian, to questioning Christian, to Agnostic, and now I think it is pretty safe to say that I'm an Atheist." Another older Christian (27) finds himself heading down the same path. Right now, he's just at the questioning stage. But he says his faith is being "severely tested" every day by intellectual attacks on Christianity and he finds he is unable to handle it.

The girl had questions, couldn't find anyone prepared to answer them and left the faith. I don't know whether the older guy was ever able to find answers to his questions. Would the girl have left the faith even if she had found answers? Possibly but, as she understands it, she left the faith because she couldn't find answers. I've seen stories like this a hundred times and I've read similar stories on this very website.

There are some discussions on this forum lately about apologetics (defending the faith). It's good that the person in the Bible forum, "John1," is pressing the Christians on his issue. The position that most Christians take towards apologetics is negative.

They describe it with pejorative terms like "fighting" or "arguing" (arguing has a technical sense in logic that doesn't have pejorative connotations, but most people aren't familiar with this sense and only use it in the negative sense) and think all they need to do is love and share the gospel. Loving and sharing the gospel is important. But part of Christian love is also a love for truth. And when we ignore or dismiss another person's questions/concerns we can present ourselves as people who aren't very loving when it comes to loving the truth. When an unbeliever or even a questioning believer perceives that you don't love the truth they most likely won't take you seriously. You may say you love Jesus, but to them this can look like a self-deceived love of having comforting beliefs.

As the Princeton theologian and founder of Westminster Theological Seminary John Gresham Machen once observed,

The shibboleths of the adversary have sometimes a very deceptive sound. ‘Let us propagate Christianity,’ the adversary says, ‘but let us not always be engaged in arguing in defense of it; let us make our preaching positive, and not negative; let us avoid controversy; let us hold to a Person and not to a dogma; let us sink small doctrinal differences and seek the unity of the church of Christ; let us drop doctrinal accretions and interpret Christ for ourselves...

and

We may preach with all the fervor of a reformer and yet succeed only in winning a straggler here and there, if we permit the whole collective thought of the nation or of the world to be controlled by ideas which, by the resistless force of logic, prevent Christianity from being regarded as anything more than a harmless delusion.

(Princeton Theological Review 11, 7).

Machen made these observations in the early 1900s. But unfortunately, as JP Moreland's book "Love Your God With All Your Mind," demonstrates, few people headed his warning. The notion that Christianity is just a harmless delusion has already taken root in our culture. That's old news. The new wave that New Atheists are making is to convince the culture that Christianity is a *harmful* delusion (Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, Mayer, et al.).

But just as in Machen's day, many Christians remain ignorant to what goes on outside of their small, enclosed Christian worldview (and what the latest TV show is, of course). That's why I suggest it's good that "John1" is pressing some people in the Bible forum on that issue. When Christians are pressed on these types of issues it can show them the value of apologetics (of knowing what they believe, why the believe, and being able and willing to defend those beliefs).

But sometimes it has the opposite effect. In college I observed two interesting cases with two friends of mine. Both of them were pressed on some issues. Neither of them were prepared to deal with the issues. This caused one of them to get interested in apologetics. He started studying to see if he had any good reasons for his beliefs. The other one withdrew into a fideistic shell. Unable to address the issue adequately, he quickly convinced himself no one could and that any endeavor to do so was useless. Sometimes it can be useless, or appears to be so, to engage in apologetics. But sometimes it can be just as useless to ignore the opportunity and rely on fideism. But I think the former case has the advantage of trying all the options and fulfilling some mandates like in 1 Peter 3:15 and Jude 3. And we never know when someone has an honest question or is just looking for a fight. And even if a person is just looking for a fight, an honest and studied answer may take the steam out from the one "chomping at the bit."

Having said that, I think you did good 1still_waters. But I don't think we need to answer the question without using the Bible. The NT itself should count as historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. That the NT is "biased" is not very relevant in that regard. The objection is supposedly made on grounds that the bias would give the persons writing the books motive to fabricate stories. But sometimes bias can motivate an interest to preserve the truth rather than fabricate it. As NT scholar Craig Blomberg often points out, some of the best historical evidence we have on the holocaust comes from Jews, Jews who are for obvious reasons very biased. We don't only accept accounts of the holocause from non-Jewish sources. We also don't only accept accounts of Abraham Lincoln from those who were ambivalent to Lincoln's cause (if there even were such persons). That the skeptic wants us to do this in the case of Jesus' is a sort of special pleading.

Liamson · Mar 30, 2011

Thank you for that.

I didn't want to be the person to say it. But because such a thing exists being prepared to understand it and deal with it is somewhat of a necessity.

Also, this sort of thing doesn't typically migrate over to the Single's Forum that often, so I was a bit confused as to what the appropriate response should be.

1still_waters · Mar 30, 2011

Liamson said:

Posting some of this stuff here keeps some of the umm...silly riff raff level posts left out.

Guess it's a form of message board natural selection.

Liz01 · Mar 30, 2011

I have talked with some ppl that dont believe in Jesus and what i have found up to now is this:

1. I dont deny what they believe because they feel attacked by me and i dont think that we are here to deny everything that is not in bible, so i only talk about what bible says
2. Things in bible can be proved by scientifics and have been proved many things but if someone have a heart very hard you can prove all but they wont believe anyway
3. A good testimony and love to them can touch their hearts

But faith is a gift from God, so the only one can make an atheist or other to believe is only God

jimmydiggs · Mar 30, 2011

Atheists tend to claim that all they want is evidence, and they will accept it. Sometimes I question how much they really mean that, and it seems they tend to argue from an "Atheism of the Gaps." To help establish feom an evidentialist side of thing the existance of the Apostles.

The Search Begins <--- click

History of the Apostles <--- click

Jullianna · Mar 30, 2011

Good points, as usual, Credo.

I absolutely agree. As I said above, if it's someone who really seems interested in engaging in a respectful conversation about the things of God, I'm totally for it, as long as I know I'm doing it for the Lord and not out of my own pride. And we are most certainly called to edify those who are weakening in their faith.

The only time I hesitate is when I know in my knower that it's someone itching for a fight. But, even then, we are called to tell the truth. After that, as Liz said, it's up to the Holy Spirit to do the tilling and fertilizing.

Jullianna · Mar 30, 2011

And, stilly, one of the things you talked about really helped me in younger days when I questioned my faith (Before I'd seen the Hand of God working so miraculously in my life). I've seen a lot of people die horrible deaths and I've come face to face with a lot of bad guys. One thing I've learned is that people will not cling to a lie when faced with the trials and horrible deaths the majority of the Apostles were. Most people would cave long before then. For me, this is their testimony to the Truth....unto death.

AnandaHya · Mar 30, 2011

the value of apologetics (of knowing what they believe, why the believe, and being able and willing to defend those beliefs).

interesting why are Christians not trained in this? Tibetan Buddhist are its called debating. many other religious also engage in conversation. we are to be of one mind and one body to be effective in the world, why do discussions break down into name calling and anger? Instead of based on mutual respect and intellectual discussion and prophecy for the exhortation, edification and comfort of the church?

Thank you for your post I will look into the feel of Christian apologetics more.

Does anyone have good science sources?

i have been given these by others on the site:

In Six Days - Index

Does God Exist?

Is Christianity intolerant? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

I"m still reading but it has been educational.

zeroturbulence · Mar 30, 2011

1still_waters said:

"I shall pretend that I didn't see that."

(Riffraff from Rocky Horror)

Credo_ut_Intelligam · Mar 30, 2011

JimmyDiggs,

I think you're right that "evidence" is ultimately not the issue. This isn't just true in some cases but in every case. Scripture is clear that all men know God (Rom. 1:18ff). Paul even says that the unbeliever is "without excuse." The word translated "excuse" there (by the ESV) is "apologia," the Greek word from which we get "apologetics." So the unbeliever is literally without an apologetic. The problem is ultimately a moral one (suppressing the clear truths in unrighteousness).

This is not to say that persons cannot have legitimate questions, but that the nature of these questions, when understood free from sin which bends our intellect, should not be such that they call into question the existence or goodness of God.

This is also not to say that dealing with the intellect is useless when the issue is moral. Our ethical lives our bound up with our intellectual lives. And God can and does use the intellect as a means to impart faith. This, I think, speaks to the point Liz01 made. I agree that faith is a gift from God (Acts 18:27 and Philippians 1:29 indicate this). But just as God is often pleased to impart that gift through preaching, so sometimes God may impart that gift through a rational discussion (the former atheist Holly Ordway gives an autobiographical account of this in her book "Not God's Type.")

AndandaHya,

In my opinion, the starting point for apologetics should be theology. The goal of apologetics is to defend what you believe and so it makes sense to first be well-versed in what it is that you believe. I've recommended this resource several times on this website to persons who are new Christians, but for the reason I mention I think it's also a good primer to apologetics.

Credo_ut_Intelligam · Mar 30, 2011

...And I forgot to add the link:

The God Who Is There - The Gospel Coalition

AnandaHya · Mar 30, 2011

Credo_ut_Intelligam said:

lol i was trying to click your signature or something.

How to make an atheist feel the nearness of Jesus without using the Bible...

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