Women will be saved through Childbearing, if
- Thread starter JohnR7
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The study on Prairie Voles is very interesting. They mate for life and so they have the same hormones that people have.
"This uniqueness in the prairie vole behavior is related to the oxytocin and vasopressin hormones. The oxytocin receptors of the female prairie vole brain are located more densely in the reward system, and have more receptors than other species, which causes 'addiction' to the social behavior. In the male prairie vole, the gene for the vasopressin receptor has a longer segment, as opposed to the montane vole, which has a smaller segment. This segment is longer in other bonding animals (such as humans), and shorter in other nonbonding animals (such as chimpanzees)." Wiki
"This uniqueness in the prairie vole behavior is related to the oxytocin and vasopressin hormones. The oxytocin receptors of the female prairie vole brain are located more densely in the reward system, and have more receptors than other species, which causes 'addiction' to the social behavior. In the male prairie vole, the gene for the vasopressin receptor has a longer segment, as opposed to the montane vole, which has a smaller segment. This segment is longer in other bonding animals (such as humans), and shorter in other nonbonding animals (such as chimpanzees)." Wiki
7
yeah
supply the scripture for that one
the Bible actually states that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets
speaking of loveable churches, which one did you learn that at?
you think a prophecy given by ANYONE supercedes the word and if it is given in church the pastor is under it somehow?
hope that is not what you mean cause it is not biblical
so much for proving all things
supply the scripture for that one
the Bible actually states that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets
speaking of loveable churches, which one did you learn that at?
you think a prophecy given by ANYONE supercedes the word and if it is given in church the pastor is under it somehow?
hope that is not what you mean cause it is not biblical
so much for proving all things
Unless, for example, the pastor knows how to not have this be for him too:
"36There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel...
38... she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem." - Luke 2:36,38
How does this qualify her to be a pastor anyway?
"36There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel...
38... she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem." - Luke 2:36,38
How does this qualify her to be a pastor anyway?
7
well, just found out that JohnnyR7 is heavy duty in Kabbalah
so I would not take his posts too seriously
on the other hand, Kabbalah is a demonic rendition of the OT, consisting of esoteric renderings, mystical interpretations and the use of magic...ALL occult and forbidden by God and punishable by physical death in the OT and will bear the fruit of spiritual death in this life
no doubt influenced by the punishment of the Jews in foreign lands where they either repented or turned to even more false gods
so I would not take his posts too seriously
on the other hand, Kabbalah is a demonic rendition of the OT, consisting of esoteric renderings, mystical interpretations and the use of magic...ALL occult and forbidden by God and punishable by physical death in the OT and will bear the fruit of spiritual death in this life
no doubt influenced by the punishment of the Jews in foreign lands where they either repented or turned to even more false gods
T
Within a marriage, I think the Bible is clear than man is head of the household. However, otherwise women can be in positions of authority over men. Deborah was one of the judges in Israel. There are a lot of female prophets in the OT. In the NT, Phoebe is referred to as a "Deacon."
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Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Co 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
When a person receives the Spirit they belong to the kingdom of God so in the Lord there is no difference between a man and a woman for the only thing that separates a man and a woman is the flesh, for the spirit and soul is the same, so when they put off the flesh and have a glorified body they are the same which is why Jesus said they do not marry in heaven but will be like the angels who have no gender but are referred to as masculine names for they are greater while the saint is in the flesh, but the saints when they receive their glorified body are greater than the angels.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
A woman can do all things a man can do for they have the Spirit and are part of the kingdom of God which there is no difference between a man and a woman.
They can preach, teach, and prophecy, for we are all commanded to preach and teach, and in Church of course they can speak for they would praise God, and give testimonies, and sing.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
So why did Paul say this that a woman keep silent in Church when they can speak in Church.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
That is because it should be a man that takes the lead in the Church when the saints come together to worship God and hear the word of God.
And when he is speaking he has the floor and in charge and for the women to be speaking would mean they are interrupting the service and the man in charge in which they would be taking authority over the man who has the floor and in charge.
The Bible does not say a woman cannot say she is equal to a man but not to try to have authority above him, for all the saints in the Church are equal in the Lord including the preacher but he has the floor when speaking and all the saints are to be quiet both men and women.
When the preacher is done speaking and having the floor then he will turn it over to the saints and they can all add to the service which would include both men and women on an equal level to speak.
And if the preacher wants he can talk to the woman and have a conversation and even have the woman come up and preach if he wants for she is not trying to have authority above him for he permitted it.
Some people will still think that the woman can be in charge over the congregation but she cannot, and she can preach and teach to men in her home, on the street, and even in Church if the preacher permits it.
This is the authority structure on earth according to God because we are in the flesh, and the angels are last in that authority structure which they are ministering spirits, and the angels desire to look in to the salvation of the saints for the saints will have a higher position in heaven than the angels.
Military, government, school, business, and the such all have an authority structure so that things run smooth and there is not fighting over who is in charge.
It would make no sense that a woman cannot speak in Church when in the Lord she is equal to the man, so if men in the congregation can speak of course the woman can speak, and all the saints add to the service after the preacher is done speaking.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Co 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
When a person receives the Spirit they belong to the kingdom of God so in the Lord there is no difference between a man and a woman for the only thing that separates a man and a woman is the flesh, for the spirit and soul is the same, so when they put off the flesh and have a glorified body they are the same which is why Jesus said they do not marry in heaven but will be like the angels who have no gender but are referred to as masculine names for they are greater while the saint is in the flesh, but the saints when they receive their glorified body are greater than the angels.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
A woman can do all things a man can do for they have the Spirit and are part of the kingdom of God which there is no difference between a man and a woman.
They can preach, teach, and prophecy, for we are all commanded to preach and teach, and in Church of course they can speak for they would praise God, and give testimonies, and sing.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
So why did Paul say this that a woman keep silent in Church when they can speak in Church.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
That is because it should be a man that takes the lead in the Church when the saints come together to worship God and hear the word of God.
And when he is speaking he has the floor and in charge and for the women to be speaking would mean they are interrupting the service and the man in charge in which they would be taking authority over the man who has the floor and in charge.
The Bible does not say a woman cannot say she is equal to a man but not to try to have authority above him, for all the saints in the Church are equal in the Lord including the preacher but he has the floor when speaking and all the saints are to be quiet both men and women.
When the preacher is done speaking and having the floor then he will turn it over to the saints and they can all add to the service which would include both men and women on an equal level to speak.
And if the preacher wants he can talk to the woman and have a conversation and even have the woman come up and preach if he wants for she is not trying to have authority above him for he permitted it.
Some people will still think that the woman can be in charge over the congregation but she cannot, and she can preach and teach to men in her home, on the street, and even in Church if the preacher permits it.
This is the authority structure on earth according to God because we are in the flesh, and the angels are last in that authority structure which they are ministering spirits, and the angels desire to look in to the salvation of the saints for the saints will have a higher position in heaven than the angels.
Military, government, school, business, and the such all have an authority structure so that things run smooth and there is not fighting over who is in charge.
It would make no sense that a woman cannot speak in Church when in the Lord she is equal to the man, so if men in the congregation can speak of course the woman can speak, and all the saints add to the service after the preacher is done speaking.
I love the insights Jesus shares concerning the resurrection, such as in Luke 20:27-40. This is where you will find that Jesus is referring not to gender but immortality when he speaks of those worthy ones who will be like the angels (vv. 34-36).
[34] Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. [35] But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, [36] and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.
[34] Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. [35] But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, [36] and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.
I don't know if we should consider four to be a lot. But anyway, Deborah was raised up to shame the men of that day who didn't have the courage to fulfill their God given leadership roles.
Women and children in leadership over the house of God is a shameful thing:
"12Youths oppress my people,
women rule over them.
My people, your guides lead you astray;
they turn you from the path." - Isaiah 3:12
I'm not sure that the office of Deacon is a position of authority, but rather one of humble service.
Women and children in leadership over the house of God is a shameful thing:
"12Youths oppress my people,
women rule over them.
My people, your guides lead you astray;
they turn you from the path." - Isaiah 3:12
I'm not sure that the office of Deacon is a position of authority, but rather one of humble service.
Hello.
Threads that dwell on childbearing often catch my attention, even if I am not always able to respond. But here, after getting back to reading some of the later posts, let me quickly post (that is, copy-paste from long Notepad excerpts from a book I read many yrs ago on natural childbirth). I'm not an expert on this, ok, but have studied to some extent as a mother who gave birth. I'll post only parts as I consider this of utmost importance for both men and women, to understand childbirth from God's word, and also from the women who give birth themselves=).
But first a short reply to the part on 1 Tim 2.15 read from Wilmington's Bible Handbook:
2 Suggested interpretations for the statement 'would be saved thru childbearing'
1. that being homemakers, women will be saved from the corruption of society;
2. that being homemakers instead of church leaders, they will avoid being judged as teachers of heresy.
So, allow me to derail ur thread, if that's how this looks like.
Samuel Zwener, an early missionary to the Arabs, says that Arab women didn’t have painful deliveries until after their society had been adversely affected by Western culture. Even when trekking across the desert, an ‘Arab woman simply dropped behind the caravan when her labor began. After giving birth to her infant…she would walk (sometimes for many hours) to overtake the caravan, carrying her baby. The experiences of the Heb. women of the Pentateuch were surely similar to these, since they were of the same Semitic origin and culture.'
Chap. 10.
There are 5 (Heb. and Greek) words wc. when applied to a birth, mean simply 'bring forth, etc. Frequently, however, we find these mistranslated as 'travail, sorrow, pain, pangs,' and in some newer translations, even as 'writhe!'
Chap. 11
During the Reformation... not only did women have a low position in society, but twas not until this time-- the 16th and 17th centuries-- that the concept of 'pain in childbirth' was included in the 'curse of eve' teaching. Previously, it was only 'sorrow' and 'groans of toil' in childbirth...and subjection to one's husband were mentioned...
According to German scholars, the word most often associated with pain in labor, Wehen, cant be traced farther back than the middle ages.
Ch. 17 Anthrop.
Heb. woman usually crouched on her heals to give birth (1 Sam. 4.19), another woman knelt bet. her legs to receive the child out her waiting lap (Gen. 30.3).
During the Renaissance
Dr. [Ignaz] philipp semmelweis, an austrian physician, showed the direct relationship bet. the attending physician's lack of personal cleanliness and the resulting puerperal infection of the (childbearing) mother.
Ch. 19 Contemporary obstetric practices
Doctors too, are victims of our negative concepts of childbirth. They have suffered when their patients suffered, and if sometimes if they seem indifferent to a woman’s pain, it is because they felt they had to take a purely objective and scientific attitude toward their patients to function effectively as a physician.
RSV and ESV are very recent translations of the Bible where pain and anguish are used in Jn. 16.21-22.
But records just prior to Christ's time reveal that a birth at this time in history generally took only 2-3 hrs, so we can be certain that Christ is not speaking of 'sorrow' of a prolonged, painful delivery.
18 Theology
It is said that etsev in Gen.3.16, 17 refers primarily to emotions.
Etsev is also translated as ‘toil’ in Prov. 5.10, 10.22, Is. 58.3.
To be consistent, it should also be translated as ‘toil’ in 1 Chron. 4.9.
There is a verse in the NT where the AV adds ‘pain’, although it does not appear in the Greek-- Rom. 8.22 where the Gk simply says:
The whole creation groans in labor together (sunadino) until now.
It is worthy to note that ‘as a woman giving birth,’ wc appears 15x in our English translations of the OT, appears only 9x in the Septuagint.
In Isa. 42.14, rather than having the Lord say, ‘… now will I cry (paah) like a travailing (yalad) woman,’ as the AV reads, the Septuagint authors render this verse as ‘I have been as patient (kartereo) as a woman giving birth (tikto).
Translators have inserted concepts of suffering in other passages of comfort and blessing that refer to childbirth, as in Is. 54.1-4, 66.7-9, Jer. 31.8, etc.
Threads that dwell on childbearing often catch my attention, even if I am not always able to respond. But here, after getting back to reading some of the later posts, let me quickly post (that is, copy-paste from long Notepad excerpts from a book I read many yrs ago on natural childbirth). I'm not an expert on this, ok, but have studied to some extent as a mother who gave birth. I'll post only parts as I consider this of utmost importance for both men and women, to understand childbirth from God's word, and also from the women who give birth themselves=).
But first a short reply to the part on 1 Tim 2.15 read from Wilmington's Bible Handbook:
2 Suggested interpretations for the statement 'would be saved thru childbearing'
1. that being homemakers, women will be saved from the corruption of society;
2. that being homemakers instead of church leaders, they will avoid being judged as teachers of heresy.
So, allow me to derail ur thread, if that's how this looks like.
Samuel Zwener, an early missionary to the Arabs, says that Arab women didn’t have painful deliveries until after their society had been adversely affected by Western culture. Even when trekking across the desert, an ‘Arab woman simply dropped behind the caravan when her labor began. After giving birth to her infant…she would walk (sometimes for many hours) to overtake the caravan, carrying her baby. The experiences of the Heb. women of the Pentateuch were surely similar to these, since they were of the same Semitic origin and culture.'
Chap. 10.
There are 5 (Heb. and Greek) words wc. when applied to a birth, mean simply 'bring forth, etc. Frequently, however, we find these mistranslated as 'travail, sorrow, pain, pangs,' and in some newer translations, even as 'writhe!'
Chap. 11
During the Reformation... not only did women have a low position in society, but twas not until this time-- the 16th and 17th centuries-- that the concept of 'pain in childbirth' was included in the 'curse of eve' teaching. Previously, it was only 'sorrow' and 'groans of toil' in childbirth...and subjection to one's husband were mentioned...
According to German scholars, the word most often associated with pain in labor, Wehen, cant be traced farther back than the middle ages.
Ch. 17 Anthrop.
Heb. woman usually crouched on her heals to give birth (1 Sam. 4.19), another woman knelt bet. her legs to receive the child out her waiting lap (Gen. 30.3).
During the Renaissance
Dr. [Ignaz] philipp semmelweis, an austrian physician, showed the direct relationship bet. the attending physician's lack of personal cleanliness and the resulting puerperal infection of the (childbearing) mother.
Ch. 19 Contemporary obstetric practices
Doctors too, are victims of our negative concepts of childbirth. They have suffered when their patients suffered, and if sometimes if they seem indifferent to a woman’s pain, it is because they felt they had to take a purely objective and scientific attitude toward their patients to function effectively as a physician.
RSV and ESV are very recent translations of the Bible where pain and anguish are used in Jn. 16.21-22.
But records just prior to Christ's time reveal that a birth at this time in history generally took only 2-3 hrs, so we can be certain that Christ is not speaking of 'sorrow' of a prolonged, painful delivery.
18 Theology
It is said that etsev in Gen.3.16, 17 refers primarily to emotions.
Etsev is also translated as ‘toil’ in Prov. 5.10, 10.22, Is. 58.3.
To be consistent, it should also be translated as ‘toil’ in 1 Chron. 4.9.
There is a verse in the NT where the AV adds ‘pain’, although it does not appear in the Greek-- Rom. 8.22 where the Gk simply says:
The whole creation groans in labor together (sunadino) until now.
It is worthy to note that ‘as a woman giving birth,’ wc appears 15x in our English translations of the OT, appears only 9x in the Septuagint.
In Isa. 42.14, rather than having the Lord say, ‘… now will I cry (paah) like a travailing (yalad) woman,’ as the AV reads, the Septuagint authors render this verse as ‘I have been as patient (kartereo) as a woman giving birth (tikto).
Translators have inserted concepts of suffering in other passages of comfort and blessing that refer to childbirth, as in Is. 54.1-4, 66.7-9, Jer. 31.8, etc.
Hello.
Threads that dwell on childbearing often catch my attention, even if I am not always able to respond. But here, after getting back to reading some of the later posts, let me quickly post (that is, copy-paste from long Notepad excerpts from a book I read many yrs ago on natural childbirth). I'm not an expert on this, ok, but have studied to some extent as a mother who gave birth. I'll post parts only as I consider this of utmost importance for both men and women, to understand childbirth from God's word, and also from the women who give birth themselves=).
But first a short reply to the part on 1 Tim 2.15 read from Wilmington's Bible Handbook:
2 Suggested interpretations for the statement 'would be saved thru childbearing'
1. that being homemakers, women will be saved from the corruption of society;
2. that being homemakers instead of church leaders, they will avoid being judged as teachers of heresy.
So, allow me to derail ur thread, if that's how this looks like.
Samuel Zwener, an early missionary to the Arabs, says that Arab women didn’t have painful deliveries until after their society had been adversely affected by Western culture. Even when trekking across the desert, an ‘Arab woman simply dropped behind the caravan when her labor began. After giving birth to her infant…she would walk (sometimes for many hours) to overtake the caravan, carrying her baby. The experiences of the Heb. women of the Pentateuch were surely similar to these, since they were of the same Semitic origin and culture.'
Chap. 10.
There are 5 (Heb. and Greek) words wc. when applied to a birth, mean simply 'bring forth, etc. Frequently, however, we find these mistranslated as 'travail, sorrow, pain, pangs,' and in some newer translations, even as 'writhe!'
Chap. 11
During the Reformation... not only did women have a low position in society, but twas not until this time-- the 16th and 17th centuries-- that the concept of 'pain in childbirth' was included in the 'curse of eve' teaching. Previously, it was only 'sorrow' and 'groans of toil' in childbirth...and subjection to one's husband were mentioned...
According to German scholars, the word most often associated with pain in labor, Wehen, cant be traced farther back than the middle ages.
Ch. 17 Anthrop.
Heb. woman usually crouched on her heals to give birth (1 Sam. 4.19), another woman knelt bet. her legs to receive the child out her waiting lap (Gen. 30.3).
During the Renaissance
Dr. [Ignaz] philipp semmelweis, an austrian physician, showed the direct relationship bet. the attending physician's lack of personal cleanliness and the resulting puerperal infection of the (childbearing) mother.
18 Theology
It is said that etsev in Gen.3.16, 17 refers primarily to emotions.
Etsev is also translated as ‘toil’ in Prov. 5.10, 10.22, Is. 58.3.
To be consistent, it should also be translated as ‘toil’ in 1 Chron. 4.9.
There is a verse in the NT where the AV adds ‘pain’, although it does not appear in the Greek-- Rom. 8.22 where the Gk simply says:
The whole creation groans in labor together (sunadino) until now.
It is worthy to note that ‘as a woman giving birth,’ wc appears 15x in our English translations of the OT, appears only 9x in the Septuagint.
In Isa. 42.14, rather than having the Lord say, ‘… now will I cry (paah) like a travailing (yalad) woman,’ as the AV reads, the Septuagint authors render this verse as ‘I have been as patient (kartereo) as a woman giving birth (tikto).
Translators have inserted concepts of suffering in other passages of comfort and blessing that refer to childbirth, as in Is. 54.1-4, 66.7-9, Jer. 31.8, etc.
…the really surprising thing is that it is the translators of the newer revisions of the last half century who have been the chief offenders… in their attempt to break away from the awkward literary training and use of familiar english words they have unwittingly ‘read into’ the text the concept of childbirth pain in many places where it is not in the original languages…
As a matter of fact, many of us are guilty of carelessly ‘reading into’ the text our own concepts of childbirth pain [and many other things wc arent there].
Ch. 19 Contemporary obstetric practices
Doctors too, are victims of our negative concepts of childbirth. They have suffered when their patients suffered, and if sometimes if they seem indifferent to a woman’s pain, it is because they felt they had to take a purely objective and scientific attitude toward their patients to function effectively as a physician.
RSV and ESV are very recent translations of the Bible where pain and anguish are used in Jn. 16.21-22.
But records just prior to Christ's time reveal that a birth at this time in history generally took only 2-3 hrs, so we can be certain that Christ is not speaking of 'sorrow' of a prolonged, painful delivery.
Because the concept of pain as a normal accompaniment of labor and birth is so deeply embedded in the minds of many doctors, they have dismissed as ‘irrational’ statements and evidences from women who have experienced happy childbirths.
The natural childbirth patient because she knows how to prevent pain from occurring by relaxation and proper breathing, does not suffer while the untrained orthodox patient bec. she is tense does not feel severe pain even under sedation…
Wessel, The Joy of Natural Childbirth
Threads that dwell on childbearing often catch my attention, even if I am not always able to respond. But here, after getting back to reading some of the later posts, let me quickly post (that is, copy-paste from long Notepad excerpts from a book I read many yrs ago on natural childbirth). I'm not an expert on this, ok, but have studied to some extent as a mother who gave birth. I'll post parts only as I consider this of utmost importance for both men and women, to understand childbirth from God's word, and also from the women who give birth themselves=).
But first a short reply to the part on 1 Tim 2.15 read from Wilmington's Bible Handbook:
2 Suggested interpretations for the statement 'would be saved thru childbearing'
1. that being homemakers, women will be saved from the corruption of society;
2. that being homemakers instead of church leaders, they will avoid being judged as teachers of heresy.
So, allow me to derail ur thread, if that's how this looks like.
Samuel Zwener, an early missionary to the Arabs, says that Arab women didn’t have painful deliveries until after their society had been adversely affected by Western culture. Even when trekking across the desert, an ‘Arab woman simply dropped behind the caravan when her labor began. After giving birth to her infant…she would walk (sometimes for many hours) to overtake the caravan, carrying her baby. The experiences of the Heb. women of the Pentateuch were surely similar to these, since they were of the same Semitic origin and culture.'
Chap. 10.
There are 5 (Heb. and Greek) words wc. when applied to a birth, mean simply 'bring forth, etc. Frequently, however, we find these mistranslated as 'travail, sorrow, pain, pangs,' and in some newer translations, even as 'writhe!'
Chap. 11
During the Reformation... not only did women have a low position in society, but twas not until this time-- the 16th and 17th centuries-- that the concept of 'pain in childbirth' was included in the 'curse of eve' teaching. Previously, it was only 'sorrow' and 'groans of toil' in childbirth...and subjection to one's husband were mentioned...
According to German scholars, the word most often associated with pain in labor, Wehen, cant be traced farther back than the middle ages.
Ch. 17 Anthrop.
Heb. woman usually crouched on her heals to give birth (1 Sam. 4.19), another woman knelt bet. her legs to receive the child out her waiting lap (Gen. 30.3).
During the Renaissance
Dr. [Ignaz] philipp semmelweis, an austrian physician, showed the direct relationship bet. the attending physician's lack of personal cleanliness and the resulting puerperal infection of the (childbearing) mother.
18 Theology
It is said that etsev in Gen.3.16, 17 refers primarily to emotions.
Etsev is also translated as ‘toil’ in Prov. 5.10, 10.22, Is. 58.3.
To be consistent, it should also be translated as ‘toil’ in 1 Chron. 4.9.
There is a verse in the NT where the AV adds ‘pain’, although it does not appear in the Greek-- Rom. 8.22 where the Gk simply says:
The whole creation groans in labor together (sunadino) until now.
It is worthy to note that ‘as a woman giving birth,’ wc appears 15x in our English translations of the OT, appears only 9x in the Septuagint.
In Isa. 42.14, rather than having the Lord say, ‘… now will I cry (paah) like a travailing (yalad) woman,’ as the AV reads, the Septuagint authors render this verse as ‘I have been as patient (kartereo) as a woman giving birth (tikto).
Translators have inserted concepts of suffering in other passages of comfort and blessing that refer to childbirth, as in Is. 54.1-4, 66.7-9, Jer. 31.8, etc.
…the really surprising thing is that it is the translators of the newer revisions of the last half century who have been the chief offenders… in their attempt to break away from the awkward literary training and use of familiar english words they have unwittingly ‘read into’ the text the concept of childbirth pain in many places where it is not in the original languages…
As a matter of fact, many of us are guilty of carelessly ‘reading into’ the text our own concepts of childbirth pain [and many other things wc arent there].
Ch. 19 Contemporary obstetric practices
Doctors too, are victims of our negative concepts of childbirth. They have suffered when their patients suffered, and if sometimes if they seem indifferent to a woman’s pain, it is because they felt they had to take a purely objective and scientific attitude toward their patients to function effectively as a physician.
RSV and ESV are very recent translations of the Bible where pain and anguish are used in Jn. 16.21-22.
But records just prior to Christ's time reveal that a birth at this time in history generally took only 2-3 hrs, so we can be certain that Christ is not speaking of 'sorrow' of a prolonged, painful delivery.
Because the concept of pain as a normal accompaniment of labor and birth is so deeply embedded in the minds of many doctors, they have dismissed as ‘irrational’ statements and evidences from women who have experienced happy childbirths.
The natural childbirth patient because she knows how to prevent pain from occurring by relaxation and proper breathing, does not suffer while the untrained orthodox patient bec. she is tense does not feel severe pain even under sedation…
Wessel, The Joy of Natural Childbirth
Wow...you clearly have not studied this enough, sorry but I have to say.... you only think you know what this means... as a woman who belongs to God these verses make perfect sense... thankfully they do not pertain to men Lording over women...when the original words are considered, it depicts a beautiful relationship, involving God-ordained roles, because God values the way He made a woman and does not want this undermining for the sake her teaching and also it is to do with her protection spiritually. It is far more gracious than our English translations portray it to be. Sadly these translations portray an arrogance which facilitates a chauvinistic and hard-hearted attitude, something which God does not have towards women.
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