Why do Dispensationalists teach Separation Theology?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
If he is indeed ruling over the earth now, you will see a wolf lying down with a. Lamb Isaiah 11:6

Unless it’s all spiritual to you too
He is reigning now.

Scripture says so. The fullest consummation has not occurred yet, but he is, indeed, ruling NOW.

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me” (Matthew 28:18)

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him (Col 2:8-14)

Wolves are laying down with lambs today as well.....former enemies from different ethnic backgrounds are brothers in the Church. The fullest consummation has not occurred yet, but that does not negate the reality that Jesus' rule is manifest now in a prolepsis form.

Of course you would call that "spiritualizing" if you are a dispensationalist but I would call your view shallow and devoid of understanding the intended meaning of the author.

But, that's exactly my problem with dispensationalism. It is shallow and devoid of understanding.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Regarding the 1260 days mentioned in Rev 12:1-4, it is possible that this refers to the entire period between Jesus' death and his return, where the church is protected in a certain sense.

But it doesn't make any difference regarding my overall criticism. The problem is that it plainly refers to the birth of Jesus, and the intent of Satan (the serpent) to destroy him. It didn't work, and he is now exalted.

Claiming that this refers somehow to Jewish believers or whatever is ludicrous. It's apparent that it does not, and it's also apparent that dispensationalists are trying to avoid their doctrine being discredited by coming up with other explanation. Because, if this verse is viewed correctly, it relates the Church as the true Israel.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
By the way, the period of 1260 days, or variants of it (3 1/2 years, 42 months, etc) are used throughout Scripture as a period of trial or tribulation. Yet, the dispensationalist interprets the period in a literal fashion. The idea that a period of days could be symbolic rather than literal is beyond their ability to understand.

Here's some notes on Rev 12:1-4 from various non-dispensationalist sources (although they may be historic premillennialist):

Revelation 12:1-6
12:1—14:20 The Cosmic Conflict Between the Dragon and the Lamb. Between the cycles of trumpet and bowl judgments, a dramatic sequence of visions presents the fundamental contest between the forces of God and Satan (the “dragon,” 12:3) for the nations’ allegiance and worship. The dragon, beast, and false prophet persecute God’s people, but God promises to spiritually protect and gloriously vindicate them. So God exhorts them to steadfastly endure.
12:1–17 The Woman and the Dragon. Many interpreters view the dramatic conflict between God and Satan in ch. 12 as the heart of Revelation. Verses 1–6 establish the conflict between two heavenly “signs”: the woman (God’s people, vv. 1, 4, 6) and her Messianic child (vv. 4–5) versus the dragon, representing Satan (v. 3). Then vv. 7–12 describe the war in heaven, which results in the dragon being hurled to earth (v. 9). Finally, vv. 13–17 describe the war on earth between the dragon and God’s people, whom God protects.
12:1 great sign. Contrasts with v. 3 (“another sign”); these signs introduce the key conflict between the woman and the dragon, which recalls Gen 3:15. woman. The faithful people of God, from whom the Messianic son comes (v. 5). sun . . . moon . . . twelve stars. Recalls Joseph’s dream in Gen 37:9.
12:3 another sign. See note on v. 1. dragon. Recalls OT descriptions of the sea monster Leviathan, representing chaos and God’s enemies (Ps 74:13–14; Isa 27:1; Ezek 29:3); identified as Satan in v. 9 (see note there; cf. 20:2). seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns. Represents the dragon’s great power and claim to sovereignty; copies the depiction of Christ (5:6; 19:12). John describes the “beast” using similar imagery (13:1; 17:3, 9–10, 12).
12:4 stars. May designate angels aligned with Satan in the original war in heaven (cf. v. 9) or diabolical persecution of God’s people (cf. Dan 8:10). devour her child. Recalls the rivalry between the serpent and Eve’s child in Gen 3:15.
12:5 male child . . . iron scepter. Jesus is Israel’s promised royal Messiah in David’s line; cites Ps 2:9; cf. Rev 2:27; 19:15.
12:6 wilderness. A place of divine protection and provision (v. 14). May recall Israel’s exodus (Exod 16:32) and promised restoration after exile (Isa 40:3; Matt 3:3). 1,260 days. The period of persecution (see 11:2 and note [“42 months”]; 13:5–7), proclamation (11:3), and protection (here) for God’s people.
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)

Revelation 12:1-6
12:1–17 Two signs in heaven—a woman who gives birth, and a dragon intent on destroying her offspring—dominate the two visions in this chapter. Twice John sees the dragon decisively defeated, and both descriptions of the battle's aftermath describe the woman's protection in the wilderness (vv. 6, 13-17). The first vision (vv. 1–6) portrays a decisive battle at the turning point of history when Christ's incarnation, obedience, sacrifice, and exaltation forever disqualified Satan as the accuser of believers (see v. 10). Some interpreters think the second vision (vv. 7–17) also represents the same series of events, while others think it portrays events at the beginning of the great tribulation.
12:1–6 The Woman's Son Defeats the Dragon. Christ, the promised son of Israel and of Eve, though apparently a defenseless newborn before the mighty dragon, has been caught up to reign with God.
12:1–2 The woman's description as a great sign in heaven and her clothing with sun, moon, and twelve stars show that she symbolizes Israel (cf. Joseph's dream, Gen. 37:9).
12:3 The great red dragon is “that ancient serpent, the devil and Satan” (v. 9; cf. 20:2; Gen. 3:1–15; Isa. 27:1). Its seven heads with seven diadems and ten horns symbolize great power (cf. Dan. 7:6–7). Cf. the description of the beast (Rev. 13:1).
12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven. Evil spirits (demons) in league with Satan share his defeat and downfall before the forces of God (cf. vv. 7–9). Some interpreters think this refers to the original fall of Satan, taking one-third of the angels with him (cf. 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6; perhaps Isa. 14:12–15). The dragon's intent to devour the woman's child at birth recalls Gen. 3:15, which predicts that the woman's offspring will bruise the serpent's head as the serpent bruises his heel.
12:5 This male child, the promised Messiah who is born to rule all the nations with a rod of iron (cf. Ps. 2:9), is not destroyed by the dragon but is exalted to God's throne (cf. Acts 2:33–36; Rev. 3:21). Yet the second vision (12:7–17) will reveal that the Messiah's suffering was integral to his victory (v. 11; cf. 5:9–10). The “rod of iron” (also 2:27; 19:15) is not a royal scepter (as in some translations) but the shepherd's club, here used to shatter the nations like pottery (cf. Ps. 2:9).
12:6 The child's mother fled into the wilderness, a setting in which God's people are utterly dependent on him but are protected from the dragon's rage (vv. 13–14). There, she was nourished by God's provision, as were Israel (Ex. 16:13–18) and Elijah (1 Kings 17:6; 19:5–8). Some scholars think the time period symbolized as 1,260 days (or “a time, and times, and half a time,” Rev. 12:14; cf. 11:2–3) began with Christ's ascension and will end when God withdraws his restraint on the dragon's power to deceive the nations and gather them against the church (20:7–10). Others understand the “1,260 days” (three and a half years) to represent the second half of the great tribulation, and to be the same period as the second half of Daniel's seventieth week (Dan. 9:27). On this view, the woman's fleeing into the wilderness indicates that during the great tribulation Jewish believers will be persecuted by the Antichrist and will flee into the wilderness (see note on Rev. 11:1–2).
(ESV SB Notes)

Revelation 12:1-6
12:1-14:20 This third cycle of visions consists primarily of histories of key symbolic characters: the dragon, the woman, the beast, the false prophet, the 144,000, angelic announcers, and the Son of Man (Introduction: Outline). Unlike the cycles of seven seals (5:1-8:1) and seven trumpets (8:2-11:19), these visions have no explicit numbering. But, like the preceding cycles, they lead to a vision of the second coming (14:14-20). The two preceding cycles focused on the judgments issuing from God’s throne. This cycle depicts in depth the nature of the spiritual conflict. Characters appear in symbolic form to represent the forces on the two sides of a cosmic spiritual war.
God Himself has already been revealed in chs. 4; 5. Opposing God are Satan (the dragon) and his agents, the beast (13:1-10) and the false prophet (13:11-18; 16:13). On God’s side are His people, portrayed as a light-bearing woman (12:1-6, 13-17) and as a chaste, numbered, and protected multitude (14:1-5). These two complementary pictures show the saints in their capacity as witnesses of God’s light and as separated from the corruptions of the world. Thus the saints are exhorted to remain faithful to Christ in response to the persecution by the beast, and to remain pure by resisting the seduction by the harlot (Introduction: Characteristics and Primary Themes). The symbolic pictures show the two sides stripped of all inconsistency and confusion to clearly express the nature of spiritual warfare (Eph. 6:10-20). The present conflicts will be followed by the peace of 21:1-22:5 when the fulfillment of God’s plans takes effect.
12:1 a woman. The imagery calls to mind Joseph’s dream (Gen. 37:9, 10) and the picture of Jerusalem bringing forth the Messiah and His remnant (Is. 54:1-4; 66:7-13; Mic. 5:3). The OT saints collectively are in view. Mary the mother of Jesus is included in this group, but only as an outstanding member of the whole. The later history shows that the NT saints also are included (vv. 13-17). The light-bearing character of the woman foreshadows the glory of the New Jerusalem (21:11, 22-27). In her privileges, the church now partakes in the blessings that will be consummated at Christ’s return. In the meantime, she is buffeted by Satan (12:1-14:20 note).
12:3 a great red dragon. This figure is identified as Satan, the devil, in v. 9. The image of a dragon depicts Satan in his monstrous power and hideous enmity against God. Satan has constantly opposed the plans of God and has been repeatedly defeated in the great acts of God’s saving power (Gen. 3:1, 15; Ps. 74:13, 14; Is. 27:1; 51:9, 10; Ezek. 29:3; Luke 10:18; 11:14-23; John 12:31; Col. 2:15). He rises against the Messiah (vv. 4, 5) and His servants (v. 17) but will finally be consigned to everlasting punishment (20:10).
12:5 a male child. In fulfillment of Mic. 5:3, Christ is born and His triumphant rule over the nations will be established, as certified by His resurrection and ascension.
12:6 God promises protection for a persecuted church. On the 1,260 days, see note on 11:2. This period begins immediately after Christ’s ascension and extends throughout the time of the entire church age itself.
(Reformation SB)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
NOTICE THE DISPENSATIONALIST INTERPRETATION OF JOHN MACARTHUR

Revelation 12:1-6
Rev. 12:1 sign. A symbol pointing to something else. This is the first of seven signs in the last half of Revelation. Cf. v. 3 13:13–14 15:1 16:14 19:20. a woman. Not an actual woman, but a symbolic representation of Israel, pictured in the OT as the wife of God (Isa. 54:5–6; Jer. 3:6–8 31:32; Ezek. 16:32; Hos. 2:16). Three other symbolic women appear in Revelation: 1) Jezebel, who represents paganism (Rev. 2:20); 2) the scarlet woman (17:3–6), symbolizing the apostate church; and 3) the wife of the Lamb (19:7), symbolizing the true church. That this woman does not represent the church is clear from the context. clothed with the sun . . . moon under her feet . . . twelve stars. Cf. Gen. 37:9–11. Being clothed with the sun speaks of the glory, dignity, and exalted status of Israel, the people of promise who will be saved and given a kingdom. The picture of the moon under her feet possibly describes God’s covenant relationship with Israel, since new moons were associated with worship (1 Chron. 23:31; 2 Chron. 2:4 8:13; Ezra 3:5; Ps. 81:3). The 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel.
Rev. 12:2 crying out in birth pains. Israel, often pictured as a mother giving birth (cf. Isa. 26:17–18 54:1 66:7–12; Hos. 13:13; Mic. 4:10 5:2–3; Matt. 24:8), had agonized and suffered for centuries, longing for the Messiah to come and destroy Satan, sin, and death, and usher in the kingdom.
Rev. 12:3 great red dragon. The woman’s mortal enemy is Satan, who appears as a dragon 13 times in this book (cf. v. 9 20:2). Red speaks of bloodshed (cf. John 8:44). seven heads . . . ten horns . . . seven diadems. Figurative language depicting Satan’s domination of seven past worldly kingdoms and 10 future kingdoms (cf. Dan. 7:7 20 24). See notes on Rev. 13:1; 17:9–10. Satan has and will rule the world until the seventh trumpet blows (11:15). He has inflicted relentless pain on Israel (Dan. 8:24), desiring to kill the woman before she could bring forth the child that would destroy him (see notes on Est. 3:6–15).
Rev. 12:4 a third of the stars of heaven. Satan’s original rebellion (cf. Isa. 14:12ff.; Ezek. 28:11ff.) resulted in one-third of the angelic host joining his insurrection and becoming demons. devour it. Unable to prevent the virgin birth of Christ, Satan tried to kill the child in a general massacre of male children commanded by Herod (Matt. 2:13–18; cf. Luke 4:28–29).
Rev. 12:5 a male child. Jesus Christ in his incarnation was of Jewish descent (Matt. 1:1; 2 Tim. 2:8). Despite Satan’s efforts to destroy Israel and the messianic line, Jesus’ birth took place as predicted by the prophets (cf. Isa. 7:14 9:6; Mic. 5:2). rod of iron. Describes Jesus’ coronation as King over the nations of the world (cf. Rev. 11:15 19:15; Ps. 2:6–9). her child was caught up to God. Christ’s ascension is in view (Acts 1:9 2:33; Heb. 1:1–3 12:2).
Rev. 12:6 wilderness. God will protect Israel from Satan by hiding her in the wilderness, perhaps in the region of Moab, Ammon, and Edom, east of Palestine. Interestingly, those countries will be specifically spared from the Antichrist’s attack against the Holy Land (cf. Dan. 11:41). 1,260 days. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the Antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, puts a stop to temple worship, sets up the abomination of desolation (Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15), and devastates Jerusalem (Rev. 11:2). At that time, many Jews flee for their lives (Matt. 24:16ff.). God will preserve them during the last 1,260 days (42 months; three and one-half years) constituting the Great Tribulation. See notes on Rev. 3:10; 6:1, 9.
(MacArthur Study Notes (ESV))


If you want to know the three major dispensationalist study Bibles, they are:

Scofield Bible
Ryrie Study Bible
MacArthur Study Bible

Ryrie "cleaned up" a lot of very obvious issues with Scofield's Bible, including the fact that he believed in the Gap Theory and thought that Israel was saved by keeping the Law.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Wolves are laying down with lambs today as well.....former enemies from different ethnic backgrounds are brothers in the Church. The fullest consummation has not occurred yet, but that does not negate the reality that Jesus' rule is manifest now in a prolepsis form.

Of course you would call that "spiritualizing" if you are a dispensationalist but I would call your view shallow and devoid of understanding the intended meaning of the author.

But, that's exactly my problem with dispensationalism. It is shallow and devoid of understanding.
Haha, so wolves and lambs to you are referring to people?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Haha, so wolves and lambs to you are referring to people?
Yes. Former enemies are reconciled (one could say Jew and Gentile but that's just an example) through the gospel today, and individuals of various nationalities, who hate one another due to it, will be reconciled in the same manner.

By the way, the fact you find this to be outlandish or incredible simply demonstrates my issues with dispensationalism. They can't reason very well.

I am surprised they don't think Jesus is a literal door, and look for a knob on his chest :)

You do realize that Scripture itself uses ferocious animals to represent conquering invaders, don't you?

I really suggest that you guys study hermeneutics. Maybe you might change your mind about dispie hermeneutics :)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
Yes. Former enemies are reconciled (one could say Jew and Gentile but that's just an example) through the gospel today, and individuals of various nationalities, who hate one another due to it, will be reconciled in the same manner.

By the way, the fact you find this to be outlandish or incredible simply demonstrates my issues with dispensationalism. They can't reason very well.

I am surprised they don't think Jesus is a literal door, and look for a knob on his chest :)

You do realize that Scripture itself uses ferocious animals to represent conquering invaders, don't you?

I really suggest that you guys study hermeneutics. Maybe you might change your mind about dispie hermeneutics :)
By the way, there could be a literal fulfillment of the Scripture, but I don't think that is the meaning. I think it's pointing to restoration of the creation shalom in the New Creation, as Revelation 21-22 presents.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Yes. Former enemies are reconciled (one could say Jew and Gentile but that's just an example) through the gospel today, and individuals of various nationalities, who hate one another due to it, will be reconciled in the same manner.

By the way, the fact you find this to be outlandish or incredible simply demonstrates my issues with dispensationalism. They can't reason very well.

I am surprised they don't think Jesus is a literal door, and look for a knob on his chest :)

You do realize that Scripture itself uses ferocious animals to represent conquering invaders, don't you?

I really suggest that you guys study hermeneutics. Maybe you might change your mind about dispie hermeneutics :)
How do you know your particular metaphor is correct? If you meet another with a different one for the same verse, is he then wrong?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,019
8,374
113
This isn't even worth reading.

Revelation 12:1-4 is describing the birth of Jesus, and Satan's attempt to destroy him through the human instrument of Herod.

It is as plain as the nose on your face, yet dispensationalists cannot see it because it does not fit their theology. They are thoroughly deceived by false teachings.

I would also suggest to folks that they listen to this message on interpreting the Bible. Dispensationalists are extremely self-righteous about their method of interpreting the Bible, claiming they are the "biblicists" and everyone else interprets wrongly. I don't find their claims to be credible, and this misinterpretation of Rev 12:1-4 is a plain example.

Here's the whole series on hermeneutics:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?subsetitem=Hermeneutics&subsetcat=series&keyword=Jonathan_Landry_Cruse&SpeakerOnly=true&includekeywords=&ExactVerse=


Here's a few on typology and the literal sense of the Bible:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1011181544239
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1023181335337

I am amazed that dispensationalists try to twist Revelation 12:1-4 into something other than Christ, his birth, and exaltation. It is PLAINLY talking about these events. Additionally, it describes how the "woman" fled to the wilderness, which is exactly what the Jewish Church did in AD67, upon divine warning, just prior to the invasion of the Roman army into Jerusalem.

But, if they held that position, they would not be dispensationalists.

Thanks for bringing this up, though..it deepens my conviction that true Israel is the Church, because it describes the connection very well :)

And, now I understand the fervent rejection of dispensationalists in regards to Revelation 12:1-4 and the relationship between Israel and the Church.
Absolutely. Ludicrous.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,019
8,374
113
Jesus is already ruling over the earth from heaven.

He will rule on earth as well, when he returns, but that's simply a change in location and a more intense rule.

He will rule over all the earth in the eternal state, too.

His rule won't just be over the house of Jacob; it will be over all mankind.

Dispensationalism is so limited in terms of it's scope, because they are Israel-centric and not Christ-centric.
If that is supposed to be an answer to the Scripture I posted, you have failed miserably.
The fact is that Jesus WAS SENT FOR THE SAKE OF ISRAEL FIRST. And though he was rejected initially (to fulfill prophecy…..exactly what He stated) He will return after his resurrection to fulfill His role as the greater Son, the Root and Branch of David. This in order to reconcile Israel to Himself after God divorced Israel (the husband died freeing the wife to REMARRY).
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,019
8,374
113
This isn't even worth reading.

Revelation 12:1-4 is describing the birth of Jesus, and Satan's attempt to destroy him through the human instrument of Herod.

It is as plain as the nose on your face, yet dispensationalists cannot see it because it does not fit their theology. They are thoroughly deceived by false teachings.

I would also suggest to folks that they listen to this message on interpreting the Bible. Dispensationalists are extremely self-righteous about their method of interpreting the Bible, claiming they are the "biblicists" and everyone else interprets wrongly. I don't find their claims to be credible, and this misinterpretation of Rev 12:1-4 is a plain example.

Here's the whole series on hermeneutics:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?subsetitem=Hermeneutics&subsetcat=series&keyword=Jonathan_Landry_Cruse&SpeakerOnly=true&includekeywords=&ExactVerse=


Here's a few on typology and the literal sense of the Bible:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1011181544239
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1023181335337

I am amazed that dispensationalists try to twist Revelation 12:1-4 into something other than Christ, his birth, and exaltation. It is PLAINLY talking about these events. Additionally, it describes how the "woman" fled to the wilderness, which is exactly what the Jewish Church did in AD67, upon divine warning, just prior to the invasion of the Roman army into Jerusalem.

But, if they held that position, they would not be dispensationalists.

Thanks for bringing this up, though..it deepens my conviction that true Israel is the Church, because it describes the connection very well :)

And, now I understand the fervent rejection of dispensationalists in regards to Revelation 12:1-4 and the relationship between Israel and the Church.
"my conviction that true Israel is the Church"

That was not Paul's conviction. Inventing a new gospel are we?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
How do you know your particular metaphor is correct? If you meet another with a different one for the same verse, is he then wrong?
I don't think that there's a possibility. Regardless of the specific application, it's talking about a condition of peace (shalom) under Christ's rule.

Rather than your interpretation, which is claiming that it will be literally fulfilled only in the animal kingdom apparently. The interpretation I think is correct is more universal.

Wooden literalism of dispensationalists isn't required to understand Scripture.

In fact, I'd say it led to being fooled by the cult I was involved with as a young person. They were wooden literalists too.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
Ryrie "cleaned up" a lot of very obvious issues with Scofield's Bible, including the fact that he believed in the Gap Theory and thought that Israel was saved by keeping the Law.
How were they saved? How did they earn the right to Abraham's bosom? Through believing the d,b,r of Jesus for sins, the gospel message of grace?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,019
8,374
113
Yes. Former enemies are reconciled (one could say Jew and Gentile but that's just an example) through the gospel today, and individuals of various nationalities, who hate one another due to it, will be reconciled in the same manner.

By the way, the fact you find this to be outlandish or incredible simply demonstrates my issues with dispensationalism. They can't reason very well.

I am surprised they don't think Jesus is a literal door, and look for a knob on his chest :)

You do realize that Scripture itself uses ferocious animals to represent conquering invaders, don't you?

I really suggest that you guys study hermeneutics. Maybe you might change your mind about dispie hermeneutics :)
"I am surprised they don't think Jesus is a literal door"

Aaahhhmmm. That is EXACTLY what Jesus is stating in that allegory. The shepherds would lie across the opening in the sheepfold walls when resting. The shepherd thereby preventing sheep from going in or coming out. This of course relates to His Spiritual authority in a similar capacity.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,019
8,374
113
Dispensationalists ignore the fact that Israel is typological of the Church.

And, they don't interpret literally in a consistent manner either. That is their claim, but it is a false claim. They have been claiming that for decades, but the reality is that they don't interpret literally in a consistent manner.

While claiming to interpret Scripture "literally", in reality what they are doing is interpreting Scripture in a manner that supports their doctrine, whether it makes sense or not.

Then, they accuse covenant theologians of allegorizing, when covenant theologians simply realize the typological nature of the given Scripture.

Regarding prophecy, their general claim is that the book of Revelation needs to be read as a sequence of events, but it is not...it is a series of visions with overlapping content, for the most part. For instance, it is easy to see that events applying to the return of Jesus are mentioned throughout the book.

For instance, Revelation 11:15ff is describing the return of Jesus, and Revelation 12:1-4 is describing the birth of Jesus, and Herod's attempt to destroy him.

The same pattern can be seen throughout the book, except for Rev 20-22.

The mistake dispensationalists make in regards to Revelation involves a failure to recognize the genre. It is apocalyptic literature, so it's going to use symbolism. Dispensationalists will recognize the symbolism only when it supports their doctrine, and they will accuse others of allegorization if they view the "literal" interpretation they employ as being inconsistent.

And, no, I don't recognize the nation of Israel as separate from the Church in God's program.

As I indicated by quoting Ephesians 2, the two (Gentile, Jew) have become one, and Gentiles have been brought near through the death of Christ.

Anyone with a decent understanding of Scripture understands union with Christ, and that the two, Jew and Gentile, have been made one man in Christ.

I believe, though, that a successful evangelization of Jews will likely occur just prior to the return of Christ. So, in that sense I believe that there will be a special work that God does amongst the Jews.

By the way, I don't think Revelation 7 is talking about a group of Jewish virgins, but is talking about the church redeemed through the tribulation. The Church is spiritual Israel.

Throughout Revelation, there is a pattern that is observed. John first sees something, and then he hears something that interprets what he sees. Or, he hears something, then he sees something that clarifies the meaning of what he heard.

In this case, he hears the reading of the names and numbers of Israel, and then he sees the multitude of those who have been redeemed by the LORD through the great tribulation.

This "seeing and hearing" or "hearing and seeing" hermeneutic is explained in GK Beale's shorter commentary on Revelation.

So, no, I do not believe in the "literalizing" hermeneutic of dispensationalists, because it really isn't taking Scripture in it's intended meaning. Additionally, they don't use it consistently themselves if using it would challenge their theology. They are inconsistent, but yelp at non-dispensationalists if they recognize typology.
"Dispensationalists ignore the fact that Israel is typological of the Church. "

Not true. There are fundamental similarities, that being at the very least the rebellion of the sons and daughters and Gods Gracious reconciliation by the same Blood of Jesus.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,019
8,374
113
Regarding the 1260 days mentioned in Rev 12:1-4, it is possible that this refers to the entire period between Jesus' death and his return, where the church is protected in a certain sense.

But it doesn't make any difference regarding my overall criticism. The problem is that it plainly refers to the birth of Jesus, and the intent of Satan (the serpent) to destroy him. It didn't work, and he is now exalted.

Claiming that this refers somehow to Jewish believers or whatever is ludicrous. It's apparent that it does not, and it's also apparent that dispensationalists are trying to avoid their doctrine being discredited by coming up with other explanation. Because, if this verse is viewed correctly, it relates the Church as the true Israel.
"Because, if this verse is viewed correctly, it relates the Church as the true Israel."

Nope. No Church anywhere in that verse. You got that all wrong.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
"Because, if this verse is viewed correctly, it relates the Church as the true Israel."

Nope. No Church anywhere in that verse. You got that all wrong.
Regardless, it's irrelevant to my major point. So, while I'm convinced that old Israel is being represented here, and then new Israel, as the woman, it's not crucial to my major point.

My point is that Revelation is not written as one sequential narrative from Rev 4-22 like dispensationalists claim.

And, this is proven by the references to the second coming of Christ in Rev 11:15-19 and the birth and exaltation of Christ in Rev 12:1-6.

That cannot be denied.

The dispensationalist idea that Revelation is written in a sequential manner is faulty. And, it is largely what their narrative is based on.

There are other references to the return of Jesus prior to Rev. 19 as well.

Revelation is a series of visions with overlapping content. The events of the Church age take the Church from a state of blemish (reflected by Rev 2-3 letters) to a glorious state (reflected in the New Jerusalem in Rev 21-22).

It also teaches that God exacts revenge upon the enemies of his people, and that these enemies are: first, Satan; second, angelic agents; and third, human agents. God ultimately vindicates his people against their enemies, and exacts vengeance for the blood these wicked beings have caused to be shed.

It also portrays that God is ultimately in control, and he causes these events to work toward the sanctification and glorification of his church.

No "pin the tail on the antiChrist" for this guy. I spent years listening to that nonsense in cultic and dispensationalist groups. Do you know that virtually every pope AND president has been identified as the antiChrist by various dispensationalists?

I don't read the Bible in one hand, and the newspaper in the other anymore :)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
"Dispensationalists ignore the fact that Israel is typological of the Church. "

Not true. There are fundamental similarities, that being at the very least the rebellion of the sons and daughters and Gods Gracious reconciliation by the same Blood of Jesus.
Why do you have issues with Israel being a type of the Church, then?

The antitype (the Church) fulfills the type (Israel).

I think in reality what you are saying is that you can't ignore the typological language, but you don't want to acknowledge that the Church is true Israel, so you will acknowledge similarities but won't accept the type/antitype designations.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
"I am surprised they don't think Jesus is a literal door"

Aaahhhmmm. That is EXACTLY what Jesus is stating in that allegory. The shepherds would lie across the opening in the sheepfold walls when resting. The shepherd thereby preventing sheep from going in or coming out. This of course relates to His Spiritual authority in a similar capacity.
Perhaps you don't understand. If dispensationalists don't acknowledge typology or symbolism, then they should expect Jesus to be a literal wooden door with a knob.

Or, in the case of the sheepfold, they should expect him to be an opening at the front of the sheep pen.

Not a human who admits the elect into the fold.

He is not a literal door. And, I think you know the point I'm trying to make. Dispensationalists acknowledge symbols and typology BUT only when they want to, and only when it doesn't interfere with their doctrine.

If it does, then they won't acknowledge it.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
How were they saved? How did they earn the right to Abraham's bosom? Through believing the d,b,r of Jesus for sins, the gospel message of grace?
They were saved by grace through faith according to Romans 4.

Salvation has never been about anything else.

They were definitely NOT saved by lawkeeping. Read Romans 3.