What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[Absolutely]

I guess I'm not really understanding what .For GOD says that HIS commandments are forever , NOT one jot or one title will pass till heaven & earth pass away GOD bless as HE sees fit

Jesus used lot and noah in comparison to deliverance END TIMES

He used both in a prejudgement context.
"... As it was BEFORE THE FLOOD...."
And we see lot also delivered PREJUDGEMENT
No deliverance after the flood as postrib rapture adherants attempt to reframe the bible

You have to see the panaramic picture.
In martyrdom there is no deliverance.

One thing postribs seem to misunderstand,the innumerable number before the throne are martyred. No protection.

Fits pretrib perfectly.
That number before the throne is millions/billions under ZERO PROTECTION.

Postrib rapture is poorly thought out.

No protection of saints,but Jews are mentioned twice as supernaturally protected OUTSIDE THE CHURCH DYNAMIC...during the gt.

 

[JohnR7]

Numeric value as in what. . a parable, metaphor, a code?

A code of assigning a numerical value to a name, word or phrase based on its letters. (code of assigning a numerical value to a name, word or phrase based on its letters. (Gematria)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are focused on the word "the" do you not realize that if you are "the" temple of God and that if you are raptured away prior to this and Gods Temple is no longer here then it cannot be polluted by that man of sin? Then if you are "the" Temple of God you must be here to be polluted.

I'm not the one suggesting that either of those two options are what is the case (with our texts and related texts).

I've said:

• in every place that Paul speaks of us ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"), he never uses the definite article ("the"); but in these two passages (2Th2:4; Rev11:1), we find the definite article being used

• that "the Church which is His body" will NOT be present at the same time that the man of sin ARRIVES (at the START of the 7-yr trib, i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5; 1Th5:2-3; 2Th2:3,7b-8a,9a[/Dan9:27a(26b)]" / [aka] "SEAL #1"

...so obviously the text states that "the temple of God" will be present on the earth at the same time that the man of sin sits there (and part of my study on that word for "sit" as it is used in this 2Th2:4 verse [and RELATED PASSAGES, other words used in a similar way] is in my Post #784 [pg 40 of this thread]); I DO NOT believe it refers to us in this verse (as "temple" [no definite article]), and I do not believe we will be present on the earth at that time (additionally, the 2Th2:4 "sits" thing happens LATER in the chronology of the 7-yr period, at the MID-point, whereas the man of sin's ARRIVAL is back at the START of the 7-yr period [the "be revealed" thing, parallel Dan9:27a(26b)]--we won't be present on the earth for either/at either of those points).


So I'm only "focusing" on the word "the" because IT IS IN THE TEXT (under discussion). I realize some folks believe it is referring to "us" and others believe it refers to the 70ad events (not "future" ones); I've endeavored to explain why I believe it is neither of those.

 

[DeighAnn]

As the days of Noe (Noah) meaning the fallen angels upon the earth. And for those fallen angels to be upon the earth, the war in heaven has ended and Satan and the FALLEN ANGELS have been cast down to earth

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 

[DeighAnn]

This has been bugging me for a while. I kept trying to "see" how a pretrib could be found in this and the most I could get was every now and again, a snippet of how it might be seen that way, but no one could explain it with any clarity.
I believe those who are not preparing for the long haul, (if you consider 5 months long) will find themselves without enough "light" to overcome and endure to the end, which requires faith that God will not only see us through it (sparrows and manna) but also the faith to "see" and believe that Gods wrath can't touch those in whom the Spirit dwells, (that would be wrath upon Himself) no matter where they be or what is happening around them, not to mention Gods wrath has nothing to do with those who love Him.

Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them
Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet him.
Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil for our lamps are gone out.

WHEN WILL IT BE A PROBLEM FOR VIRGINS TO GO OUT AND BUY FROM THOSE SELLING?
WHEN SATAN IS HERE. SO ALL 10 VIRGINS MUST BE ON THE EARTH AT THE SAME TIME SATAN IS.
(And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name).

Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so lest there be not enough for us and you but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
IT IS AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION THAT JESUS RETURNS AND THOSE WHO DID NOT TAKE THE MARK (WISE) GO WITH HIM, TO THOSE WHO DID (FOOLISH AND UNPREPARED), FIND THE DOOR SHUT.

Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
FOR THEY WILL BE VIRGINS NO MORE.

 

[DeighAnn]

MAYBE FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
Matthew 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Matthew 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Matthew 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

 

[Absolutely]

As the days of Noe (Noah) meaning the fallen angels upon the earth. And for those fallen angels to be upon the earth, the war in heaven has ended and Satan and the FALLEN ANGELS have been cast down to earth

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Yes indeed.

"BEFORE THE FLOOD"

PSSSSST;
Your theory is that we are raptured AFTER THE "FLOOD"

"...BEFORE THE FLOOD..."

Then you think at the beginning of the gt earths population is "taken away"

Nothing whatsoever makes sense in those verses when postribs get ahold of them.

(You need a postrib event,not a "before the flood" event)

Pretrib rapture is bible. Solid truth

 

[Absolutely]

MAYBE FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
Matthew 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Matthew 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Matthew 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

That story is God "settling up"

The setting is commerce and peacetime.

How do yoi guys not get it????

You NEED. A wartime/destroyed earth/human massacre setting.

Rapture is pretrib.

Easily defended.
But appalling seeing you guys reframe every dynamic Jesus portrays

 

[PlainWord]

The MILLENNIAL TEMPLE. The Lords Day. When Christ returns as Lord of Lords and King of kings. The day of vengeance. His feet hitting the mount. The valley created. The host of heaven cast to the earth. A Thousand years. We all are changed. No more flesh. Lamb lies down with lion, no more carnivores. River that can't be crossed. Priests teaching truth and obedience without any false doctrine to get in the way. Then near the end, Satan loosed. The Last testing. Gods destruction of all evil, the second death at the lake of fire. Eternal kingdom.

You are foolishly following the traditions of modern man. None of your interpretations are correct.

1. We are in the "millennium" right now. AKA the Church Age, AKA the Messianic Age. AKA Age of Grace, AKA Kingdom.
2. Christ is the head of His Church RIGHT NOW!! We are His bride, and have been for nearly 2,000 years.
3. The "day of vengeance" you cite happened in 70 AD. What do you think Christ was to revenge? It was His murder. What's your view? A pope thinking he is vicar? None of the things happening today are more deserving of God's wrath than the brutal and demeaning murder of His Son. Think about that.
4. There is NO PASSAGE that teaches living bodies are converted to spiritual bodies without dying first. In fact, the teaching is contrary as I pointed out yesterday. The "change" had nothing to do with body conversion, it had everything to do with destiny conversion. "We shall not all sleep" means we shall not all go to Hades. Hades is where saints "slept" waiting for redemption. When Christ returned, he freed the captives in Hades and they returned to Heaven with Him in the first century. Ever since, when a Christian dies, they go straight to heaven not having to sleep in Hades first.
5. "His feet hitting the mount" splitting the Mt. of Olives happened in the 160s BC with the Maccabees. The valley can be seen today.
6. What's this lamb lying down with lion nonsense??? Do you get to invent scripture anytime you want? There is NO passage that has lions and lambs lying down together. We have wolves dwelling with and feeding with lambs and lions eating straw but those are symbolic for time of peace and security, after war, used twice by Isaiah.

If you want to believe all of these foolish, man-made traditions, go ahead. You will spend much of your life waiting for something that isn't going to happen and I suppose after you die and get to heaven and learn the truth, you may remember me. Look me up on that day and I will humbly accept your apology.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[Re: Matt25] This has been bugging me for a while. I kept trying to "see" how a pretrib could be found in this and the most I could get was every now and again, a snippet of how it might be seen that way, but no one could explain it with any clarity.

Speaking for myself [I'm a pre-tribber], I do not believe "our Rapture" is the Subject found in the Olivet Discourse AT ALL (anywhere therein); so these passages you quote are not about our Rapture, but is covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there [like in Lk12:35-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [i.e. as an already-wed Bridegroom], THEN the meal (the earthly MK and their entrance into that MK age)]; I had made a post awhile back about the "lamps lit" for the NIGHT WATCHES / "IN THE NIGHT" / "DARK/DARKNESS" time period [the START of the DOTL time period, which in total is of much duration, and that the 7-yr trib is the "IN THE NIGHT/DARKNESS" aspect OF IT]

 

[PlainWord]

God never did live in temples made with human hands. The abomination of desolation. A created thing seen in the eternal place of our invisible God not seen who is not a man as us..

Those temples were shadows to represent residents of the city. The bride which God named, Christian. Previously called born again Israel .A befitting name. Christian, a word with no other meaning. . . Meaning residents of the city of Christ, named after her founder and husband, Christ. .

The Ezekiel account would appear to be vision to Son of man Jesus, as to the golden measure of faith. Where numbers as golden represent residents and not architectural buildings as the measure of man . 144,000 the elect .A number no man could count .Those redeemed from earth..

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

I like some of what you said but my views are a little different. I agree, God does not live in temples but He used to dwell with His people. This dwelling is His Presence with His people as taught all over the OT, esp Zechariah. When the people were being faithful, God blessed the people with His presence. 2 Cor 6:16 "For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” This is the temple, not some future man-made millennial temple but so many don't understand this.

Today's Christian has Christ dwelling within us. Christ presence returned in the first century and has been with His church, which is His bride, ever since. There is no future return of Christ foretold and why would there be? Parousia means Presence. Thus the opposite of Parousia is absence, not leave or leaving. Thus when Christ returned to heaven around 30-33 AD, Christ was absent from the Earth. It wasn't Christ returning to earth, it was His presence returning circa 70 AD. Christ has been present with His church as Head of His church ever since. If this is not the case then the Church has been without a head for all these years. Since Christ is present as Head of the church now, there is no need for Him to return in our future because He is already here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[…], it was His presence returning circa 70 AD. Christ has been present with His church as Head of His church ever since. If this is not the case then the Church has been without a head for all these years. Since Christ is present as Head of the church now, there is no need for Him to return in our future because He is already here.

I'm always pointing out "Ephesians 1:20-23 WHEN" (see that passage), but what YOU are suggesting is that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" was "without a Head" for the first FORTY YEARS. (My point is to say, "not so!")


[many of the points you make, saying they "happened in the 70ad events," are things like this which occurred WELL-BEFORE that point in time (things other than His "return," I speak of here), and which have no reason to have occurred that long after His resurrection/ascension/exaltation]

 

[Jimbone]

Maybe I missed where it said satan had to be in a temple made with the hands. Please tell me where to find it and I will go study it.

Well that is what's the "Holy place" in Mathew 24:15? It tells them when they see the AoD standing in the Holy place, flee to the mountains.

Come on now, please see that Jesus is speaking in a very specific time to a very specific people in a very specific place, namely Jerusalem. So Jesus is telling the Jews in Jerusalem that whey "they" see the "AoD standing in the Holy place". Please tell me what you think this "Holy place" Jesus is talking about is? What could the "Holy place" in Jerusalem possibly have been, keeping in mind that Matthew is a Jew writing this in a very Jewish way to other Jews, so what do you honestly think the original readers of this text would have thought the "Holy place" in Jerusalem was?

That aside Jesus is giving these people very specific physical instructions. "When you see "this" then flee from here to "these mountains". To try to take this and say the true meaning was for us WWWAAAYYYY in the future just makes no sense and whats more is we have an accounts from Eusebius and Epiphanius that this happen in actual history. That when the Romans surrounded the city at some point for some reason they retreated away, the Christian then fled while the Jews laughed and mocked the Romans thinking their walls had proved more trouble than they were worth. The Christians fled, the Jews celebrated long enough the see the Romans come right back and destroy them root and stem, in a way only Gods wrath can, described with accounts of mothers eating their own babies and the streets literally flowing with blood. Yea pretty rough.

When you read the end of Dan 9 in light of what I'm saying here it fits so perfect.

24“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.d 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Of course this was before the 2nd temple was even built, but it's the part about the timing of the coming "anointed one" awesomely enough, and when the "Desolations are decreed" until the sacrificing and offerings have been ended at that time, the time when all this happen, when God brought redemption and then judgement just as He said in THAT generation, ending that age and bringing in the kingdom that will know no end, that our Lord described like a mustard seed, and like leaven permeating the meal, all these thing fit so perfect and without the charts or puzzle piecing scriptures, or 6 paragraphs of "the original Greek" and 6,000 "[brackets]" and "(parentheses)" to try to back reference and decode the point you may or may not be trying to make because until these last few comments, you haven't been explaining at all.

So you think the temple in now us His church correct? I agree with this by the way, I believe those who are born again by His grace are His temple and where His Spirit dwells. How can you not see what you profess here can not line up with a future event? So instead of being any more presumptuous, what do you believe the AoD will be? How can everyone of His children, who none can snatch from His hands by the way, be desecrated? And more than that what the text is describing is Gods earthly temple on earth being desecrated, this is what every believer in this future pre trib rapture thing that I have ever heard teaches. Now all of a sudden because you are cornered with nowhere to go it's
"Maybe I missed where it said satan had to be in a temple made with the hands. Please tell me where to find it and I will go study it"

Maybe I missed where I said anything like this at all anywhere, please show me so I can bare witness to my incoherent babbling and can study my own brains craziness. Serious though, what do you think the bible says the Abomination of Desolation is? Please just a regular answer in your words, and maybe the direct scriptures you gained this understanding from of course, but please not 1,000 pieces of scripture I have to decode to try to guess what you believe.

 

[garee]

I like some of what you said but my views are a little different. I agree, God does not live in temples but He used to dwell with His people. This dwelling is His Presence with His people as taught all over the OT, esp Zechariah. When the people were being faithful, God blessed the people with His presence. 2 Cor 6:16 "For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” This is the temple, not some future man-made millennial temple but so many don't understand this.

Today's Christian has Christ dwelling within us. Christ presence returned in the first century and has been with His church, which is His bride, ever since. There is no future return of Christ foretold and why would there be? Parousia means Presence. Thus the opposite of Parousia is absence, not leave or leaving. Thus when Christ returned to heaven around 30-33 AD, Christ was absent from the Earth. It wasn't Christ returning to earth, it was His presence returning circa 70 AD. Christ has been present with His church as Head of His church ever since. If this is not the case then the Church has been without a head for all these years. Since Christ is present as Head of the church now, there is no need for Him to return in our future because He is already here.

Hi thanks for the reply.

I don't think the Spirit of Christ ever left as the Son of God. He remains our high priest continually (Hebrews7) .The Son of man, Jesus from the tribe of Judah was used to change the new order of priesthood of believers . Today all nations as denominations have the privilege as a kingdom of priest after Melchedik our high Priest continually .

The unseen power of him was limited when the Son of Man appeared for 33 years . This was so he could teach us how to walk by faith the unseen eternal, hiding the spiritual understanding, the gospel from natural man .

It would seem you are using the "witness of men" to validate the unseen things of God as His witness. God is not a man as us.

In the corrupted flesh signified as sinful the Son of man Jesus declared it profits for nothing but that which did profit is in respect to the unseen spiritual work of faith one mutual faith performed by two . . .him and the father working as one. The "witness of God" . His Spirit redeemed us. His word is Spirit and new life giving. Again the flesh as the witness of men profits for nothings.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

In that way I would think we look to the things not seen. . the things of faith.

A work of faith that the letter of the law that kills could not do. Flesh signified as sinful must be used to demonstrate the work of faith or labor of Love. One faith that worked of the two it condemned sin in the flesh.

Romans 8:2-4 King James Version (KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

When Jesus the Son of man left (2 Corinthians 5:16) he left instruction that even though some did know him after the temporal flesh what the eyes see signified as sinful … we know him no more forever more. Again God is not a man as us. He remains without outward form.

I would think the moment he disappeared out of sight. The law of forgiveness changed. Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man while he was here . Forgiveness today can only come by walking by faith the unseen Holy place of God. The church is a representation of the light of the world when and if they hold out the gospel the light . They are not the source of the light, the glory of God.

Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[garee]

Well that is what's the "Holy place" in Mathew 24:15? It tells them when they see the AoD standing in the Holy place, flee to the mountains.

Come on now, please see that Jesus is speaking in a very specific time to a very specific people in a very specific place, namely Jerusalem. So Jesus is telling the Jews in Jerusalem that whey "they" see the "AoD standing in the Holy place". Please tell me what you think this "Holy place" Jesus is talking about is? What could the "Holy place" in Jerusalem possibly have been, keeping in mind that Matthew is a Jew writing this in a very Jewish way to other Jews, so what do you honestly think the original readers of this text would have thought the "Holy place" in Jerusalem was?

That aside Jesus is giving these people very specific physical instructions. "When you see "this" then flee from here to "these mountains". To try to take this and say the true meaning was for us WWWAAAYYYY in the future just makes no sense and whats more is we have an accounts from Eusebius and Epiphanius that this happen in actual history. That when the Romans surrounded the city at some point for some reason they retreated away, the Christian then fled while the Jews laughed and mocked the Romans thinking their walls had proved more trouble than they were worth. The Christians fled, the Jews celebrated long enough the see the Romans come right back and destroy them root and stem, in a way only Gods wrath can, described with accounts of mothers eating their own babies and the streets literally flowing with blood. Yea pretty rough.

When you read the end of Dan 9 in light of what I'm saying here it fits so perfect.

24“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.d 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Of course this was before the 2nd temple was even built, but it's the part about the timing of the coming "anointed one" awesomely enough, and when the "Desolations are decreed" until the sacrificing and offerings have been ended at that time, the time when all this happen, when God brought redemption and then judgement just as He said in THAT generation, ending that age and bringing in the kingdom that will know no end, that our Lord described like a mustard seed, and like leaven permeating the meal, all these thing fit so perfect and without the charts or puzzle piecing scriptures, or 6 paragraphs of "the original Greek" and 6,000 "[brackets]" and "(parentheses)" to try to back reference and decode the point you may or may not be trying to make because until these last few comments, you haven't been explaining at all.

So you think the temple in now us His church correct? I agree with this by the way, I believe those who are born again by His grace are His temple and where His Spirit dwells. How can you not see what you profess here can not line up with a future event? So instead of being any more presumptuous, what do you believe the AoD will be? How can everyone of His children, who none can snatch from His hands by the way, be desecrated? And more than that what the text is describing is Gods earthly temple on earth being desecrated, this is what every believer in this future pre trib rapture thing that I have ever heard teaches. Now all of a sudden because you are cornered with nowhere to go it's
"Maybe I missed where it said satan had to be in a temple made with the hands. Please tell me where to find it and I will go study it"

Maybe I missed where I said anything like this at all anywhere, please show me so I can bare witness to my incoherent babbling and can study my own brains craziness. Serious though, what do you think the bible says the Abomination of Desolation is? Please just a regular answer in your words, and maybe the direct scriptures you gained this understanding from of course, but please not 1,000 pieces of scripture I have to decode to try to guess what you believe.

The holy place is the unseen place as the Christians mutual source of faith, the store house of unseen goods , the hidden glory of God. .
Jerusalem the temporal was a representation of and signified the things not seen the eternal . They failed to honor it but made it about their own flesh as a law of the father the temporal things seen. Venerable men who lord it over another man's faith...oral traditions of men that makes sola scriptura, all things written in the law and the prophets without effect.

It tells them when they see the temple made with human hand standing in the Holy unseen place of faith, the hidden glory , flee to the mountains or kingdoms of the world, or denominations of the world . Avoid walking by sight as those who seek after signs and wonders gospel. Abide by the warning of the antichrists, men seen who say a man must teach us.(1 John 2:27-28) Christ said abide in him as he teaches us guides us and brings to our minds that which he has taught us.

The father of lies the spirit of the antichrist (singular) needs a body as antichrists (plural) to deceive others to follow after "the things of men" after the god of this world Satan . Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man in respect to the temporal flesh. A 33 year window of opportunity. Today there is no forgiveness in denying the Holy Spirit not seen . It is the one source by which we can believe.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but "those that be of men".Mathew 16:22-23

Things of men seen "the temporal". Things of God faith unseen "the eternal" .

 

[Jimbone]

The holy place is the unseen place as the Christians mutual source of faith, the store house of unseen goods , the hidden glory of God. .
Jerusalem the temporal was a representation of and signified the things not seen the eternal . They failed to honor it but made it about their own flesh as a law of the father the temporal things seen. Venerable men who lord it over another man's faith...oral traditions of men that makes sola scriptura, all things written in the law and the prophets without effect.

It tells them when they see the temple made with human hand standing in the Holy unseen place of faith, the hidden glory , flee to the mountains or kingdoms of the world, or denominations of the world . Avoid walking by sight as those who seek after signs and wonders gospel. Abide by the warning of the antichrists, men seen who say a man must teach us.(1 John 2:27-28) Christ said abide in him as he teaches us guides us and brings to our minds that which he has taught us.

The father of lies the spirit of the antichrist (singular) needs a body as antichrists (plural) to deceive others to follow after "the things of men" after the god of this world Satan . Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man in respect to the temporal flesh. A 33 year window of opportunity. Today there is no forgiveness in denying the Holy Spirit not seen . It is the one source by which we can believe.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but "those that be of men".Mathew 16:22-23

Things of men seen "the temporal". Things of God faith unseen "the eternal" .

You can say what you want, but that verse in it's full context in the chapter and as whole with all other scripture considered there is no way I can buy what your selling here. I mean I guess you can take this one part of the chapter and say "The holy place is the unseen place as the Christians mutual source of faith", but if that's so I don't know one can "stand in" a "unseen place as the Christians mutual source of faith". What you are saying here does not fit, Jesus is telling these people "when you see this then flee". You can believe what you just said, but I have to very strongly disagree and say the definition you put on the Holy place doesn't fit the verse at all, in any way, even in the "original Greek" what you are suggesting here make no sense at all.

 

[DeighAnn]

Well that is what's the "Holy place" in Mathew 24:15? It tells them when they see the AoD standing in the Holy place, flee to the mountains.

My reply is Gods ways are not our ways and at some point faith is the answer that Gods Word will play out exactly as written whether we have an understanding of it or not. He says it, I believe it not on what I can see or figure out but on pure faith.


But, I will put forth this,
Exodus 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exodus 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exodus 3:5 And He said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

 

[Jimbone]

The holy place is the unseen place as the Christians mutual source of faith, the store house of unseen goods , the hidden glory of God. .
Jerusalem the temporal was a representation of and signified the things not seen the eternal . They failed to honor it but made it about their own flesh as a law of the father the temporal things seen. Venerable men who lord it over another man's faith...oral traditions of men that makes sola scriptura, all things written in the law and the prophets without effect.

It tells them when they see the temple made with human hand standing in the Holy unseen place of faith, the hidden glory , flee to the mountains or kingdoms of the world, or denominations of the world . Avoid walking by sight as those who seek after signs and wonders gospel. Abide by the warning of the antichrists, men seen who say a man must teach us.(1 John 2:27-28) Christ said abide in him as he teaches us guides us and brings to our minds that which he has taught us.

The father of lies the spirit of the antichrist (singular) needs a body as antichrists (plural) to deceive others to follow after "the things of men" after the god of this world Satan . Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man in respect to the temporal flesh. A 33 year window of opportunity. Today there is no forgiveness in denying the Holy Spirit not seen . It is the one source by which we can believe.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but "those that be of men".Mathew 16:22-23

Things of men seen "the temporal". Things of God faith unseen "the eternal" .

Yea brother, with all due respect, because you're being awesome I love discussing these things, so please understand I'm just trying to share my perspective here and am not trying to say this in a "know it all" kind of way at all, but I think you're trying WAY too hard to make all this about us in the present. It just doesn't fit and it makes Jesus a liar quite frankly. The whole "Jesus is Lord now, but just not yet", is a huge hole in the armor of your view. There is no way around it without having to play crazy mental and scholarship gymnastics to try to back-flip these simple and plain words into whatever you need to mean to support the preconceived ideas you bring to the text. These letters and books are for everyone, but they were not written to us like you're trying to make them, we have to keep in mind who these were intended for when they were written.

In what you wrote here you made everything mean some kind of deeper coding in the message, as if this was what the man God used to write them intended, or at the very least was baffled at why what he was writing didn't seem to apply to the very people he was writing to. This makes no sense at all if you understand that these very letters we read were addressed to real people, and the author of the letter was telling these people these things. To take scripture and do with it what you just did here is honestly pointless in my opinion. And I am sorry to be so harsh, and there was some good things in what you wrote, but the way you handled the text was just like making up what these things "could" mean. What did you base these assertions of meaning on? Where did you get them?

Anyway..

Praise God He has granted us all repentance, and now said "go there and make disciples of ALL NATIONS baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", who is with us and leads us to all truth, in Jesus name. Amen.

 

[Jimbone]

My reply is Gods ways are not our ways and at some point faith is the answer that Gods Word will play out exactly as written whether we have an understanding of it or not. He says it, I believe it not on what I can see or figure out but on pure faith.


But, I will put forth this,
Exodus 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
Exodus 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exodus 3:5 And He said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

See now you jump here to this? This has nothing at all to do with what Jesus was talking about when He said the Holy place, but see you have to jump all around like this an Mix "n Match to try to get these scriptures to line up with you preconceived view. God is not as complicated as you're making Him with all this noise. This was God talking to Moses, right then and there, and while this could possible be the same spot that Herod's temple was built as in the very same "Holy place", but even if so it would still make the "Holy place" in Mat 24 the earthly temple. Oh my goodness I have never seen pre-tribbers deny the third temple. A whole new view to me, where does this new teaching come from? I though all believe an earthly 3rd temple had to be built to be desecrated. Exactly what camp are you in, because you are not standing behind anything solid?

 

[DeighAnn]

1. We are in the "millennium" right now.

So you say, yet I am sitting here in a flesh body. Where do I go to look upon Satan so that I can say "Is this the man". You can continue to call me names and judge my beliefs but you can't produce what must be for what you say is.

You do not agree.

Once again, I say no matter HOW much of prophecy WAS fulfilled back then, BECAUSE ALLLLLLLLL OF IT WASN'T, IT BECOMES JUST AN EXAMPLE FOR FUTURE PROPHECY WHEN ALLLLLLLL OF IT WILL BE. I know you do not agree.

I don't know how many times you need to tell me WHAT YOU THINK but GODS WORD will be fulfilled EXACTLY AS WRITTEN and if it is NOT EXACTLY as it is written, it has not happened and there is not one single thing you can say that will change that belief, ever. I BELIEVE IN THE TRUTH of the Word of God, and it's PERFECTION and NOTHING ELSE.


You believe this age of Grace is the millennium. ok. But how long is a millennium? When did your millennial age begin? Your millennial must have also ended by now. What comes at the end of that age?

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

And as I believe this happened in the past, I also believe it happens in the present, and will be TRUTH until the Lord does return.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2 Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already and overthrow the faith of some.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.