What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[iamsoandso]

Interesting

I have never looked at it in that light.

I will get back to you.

Sounds great,,,I realize are pre-trib. pre-wrath,pre-mill. I am more post-trib,pre-wrath pre-mill(not the point so no friction,lol) but bare in mind that because I am some things I would say and do may not be the same way you would see this. But for the sake of explanation I should point this out to you about mine own self,lol.

There are a lot of other things you can find on the www https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennial_Day_Theory or the book of Jubilees it's self(sets of seven divisions). If you bare in mind the way we use "dispensation" today and look at the way the Jews have always used nd looked at those seven days you will see that they have always saw seven dispensations they just called then generations,ages,aeon,days(reference to the 7 days) ect.

As a pre-trib you may have never seen need to look so closely at the Jewish faith because you see that you will be raptured prior to their conversion but as a post trib thinker I would need to see how they thought or I would be no help in their conversion at that time. So don't think that in any manner I am speaking of this and trying to sway your thinking from Christianity and our Lord Jesus Christ. The purpose is to understand how those disciples who first understood these things would have seen the words then spoken and to them to have meant.

 

[iamsoandso]

I know right? The thing they don't think of is that even if a bunch of Jesus denying Jews build a place they call "Gods temple", just by logic God can't be in it because they are denying the Son, if He was in it they wouldn't be denying Jesus. It really is this easy, you don't have to use a chart, a timeline, heck you don't even have to call a guru to understand the logic behind this. Also God has to command His temple be built for it to be His, right? Where did this happen, because it's nowhere in His word. That I've seen yet anyway.

I think the error is in what the tabernacle actually is which is https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-19.htm

But in the same if we are that temple and by following the different camps in eschatology we set AoD, into a place in the past then Revelation 13:6 will make no sense,,, https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13.htm

That is when they build it, "it" will be in a place where it ought not be and they will have supported it(worshiped) and seen it as of God so will have blasphemed his name and his tabernacle and fulfilled Rev.13:6...which is what is taking place even now if you consider what you just said.

 

[JohnR7]

It is finished

Jesus said: "It is finish". But you assume that Jesus did it FOR you. He wants to do a finished work IN YOU to redeem YOU. We must be born again, we must be redeemed.

 

[Jimbone]

I think the error is in what the tabernacle actually is which is https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-19.htm

But in the same if we are that temple and by following the different camps in eschatology we set AoD, into a place in the past then Revelation 13:6 will make no sense,,, https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/13.htm

That is when they build it, "it" will be in a place where it ought not be and they will have supported it(worshiped) and seen it as of God so will have blasphemed his name and his tabernacle and fulfilled Rev.13:6...which is what is taking place even now if you consider what you just said.

You're putting too much into it, I do not see anywhere. The fact of the matter is all these things are clearly said to happen in "Gods temple" in Jerusalem, in that generation. In the context it's given in the bible what you're saying here is just so far out of left field as to be disconnected from whats written.

 

[JohnR7]

the Jews have always used nd looked at those seven days you will see that they have always saw seven dispensations they just called then generations,ages,aeon,days(reference to the 7 days) ect.

Yes they continue to believe in the 6,000 years only they changed their calendar so that 5780 on the Hebrew calendar. For me this is the year 5990. Lightfoot and Ussher come up with the same date that I do.

 

[JohnR7]

I think the error is in what the tabernacle actually is which is https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/6-19.htm

We are the temple of God and that is why we believe in the pre trib rapture. The church is removed from the earth before God's wrath is pour out on the Earth. Although I see a LOT of tribulation in the world today. If we look at the fire in Australia there is so much that has already been destroyed.

 

[Jimbone]

Jesus said: "It is finish". But you assume that Jesus did it FOR you. He wants to do a finished work IN YOU to redeem YOU. We must be born again, we must be redeemed.

Okay He says "It is finished", on the cross. You say "But you assume that Jesus did it FOR you. He wants to do a finished work IN YOU to redeem YOU. We must be born again, we must be redeemed".
First of all I'm not sure what point you're "correcting", me on, but how are you going to tell me what I assume, then correct me on what you said?

NOPE you're dead wrong, I do not "assume that Jesus did it FOR you(me)", I know that Jesus the Christ lay down His life and was obedient to the Fathers will all the way to death, so that the wrath that abides on all of us could be put on Him in full, the price paid on the innocent so His righteousness could be justly applied to us the guilty who deserve death, forever redeeming all creation for His glory.<-- This is what I believe He died for, to redeem ALL creation for His glory.

So now you know what I "assume", maybe you can come back and correct what I actually believe. I'm interested to receive your critique. If I have misunderstood your intent here somehow, then I apologize for my "short" tone here. If I didn't then I am truly interested in you expanding a bit on what you're trying to say because I'm missing it. Even if this is disagreeing with something I am putting forth here I am missing your point, but want to understand what you mean more clearly.

 

[PlainWord]

do you got any evidence whatsoever that heaven is temple and earth is israel? thats some stretching to grab something from o.t. to say hear o earth and its israel

It's used throughout including by Peter in 2 Pet 3.

 

[JohnR7]

I know that Jesus the Christ lay down His life

We are told: "for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame," (Hebrews 12:2) What do you think this means: "For the Joy (charas) set before Him"?

 

[Jimbone]

The "joy" set before Him was the whole end result, the salvation and redemption of His creation. In a sense, personally, we could think of it as "us", but the "joy" is the complete finished work as a whole. I guess it could be summed up as the Glory of God.

Why don't you also share what you think it is?

 

[PlainWord]

We are the temple of God and that is why we believe in the pre trib rapture. The church is removed from the earth before God's wrath is pour out on the Earth. Although I see a LOT of tribulation in the world today. If we look at the fire in Australia there is so much that has already been destroyed.

What are you talking about? Fires in Australia? Where in the Bible do you find the country, Australia mentioned? We are given the location in each of the 3 companion passages.

Mat 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mark 14:14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

The great tribulation as mentioned in Mat 24, Mark 14 and Luke 21 is clearly about the Roman attack on Judea and siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The three passages are in agreement. Would those dealing with fires in Australia have to first go to Judea so that they could then flee to the mountains? Good grief!!

 

[iamsoandso]

You're putting too much into it, I do not see anywhere. The fact of the matter is all these things are clearly said to happen in "Gods temple" in Jerusalem, in that generation. In the context it's given in the bible what you're saying here is just so far out of left field as to be disconnected from whats written.

Your seeing the Jews undergoing the GT and not who Jesus said in Matthew 24:9 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24.htm

In fact in ad70 those who endured the siege of Jerusalem are seen by many as such in this but in Matthew 24:9 he said "...they will deliver you(the disciples/Church) and that they would be hated for the name of him(Jesus) so bare in mind that 1.1 million Jews died in the siege and 6 million in ww2(which is sorrowful) but of those not one of them died for Jesus name's sake(they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah we do and we face the GT).

 

[iamsoandso]

We are the temple of God and that is why we believe in the pre trib rapture. The church is removed from the earth before God's wrath is pour out on the Earth. Although I see a LOT of tribulation in the world today. If we look at the fire in Australia there is so much that has already been destroyed.

When the women went to the tomb they thought the gardener had moved his body not that he rose from the grave. Peter said he going fishing after Jesus was crucified as if he didn't understand. Thomas said unless he put his fingers in the nail holes and the hole in his side he would not believe it. In Luke 24:21 they said "we were hoping he was the one...." https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/24.htm

in fact every time Jesus told them he would die and return https://biblehub.com/luke/18-34.htm it was hidden from them https://biblehub.com/john/20-9.htm

Now in Matthew 24:3 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-3.htm were they asking him about his second coming like you think? This would not fit at all seeing the Scriptures say they didn't understand and it was hidden from them. That is they were not asking about his second coming and so he answered the questions he was ask.

 

[iamsoandso]

Yes they continue to believe in the 6,000 years only they changed their calendar so that 5780 on the Hebrew calendar. For me this is the year 5990. Lightfoot and Ussher come up with the same date that I do.

I think none know the time and should just watch...

 

[JohnR7]

I think none know the time and should just watch...

We are not talking about the end. We are talking about the beginning of the church. I think that the Church began on the day of Pentecost when Peter was preaching in the upper room in the year 29 ad. That was 50 days after Passover and after Jesus was resurrected. So 2029 would be the 2,000 year anniversary of the Church. We can buy a cake and have a party that day.

 

[JohnR7]

Where in the Bible do you find the country, Australia mentioned?

"The Bible says there will be great tribulation in the world at the end of this age: "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved." (Matthew 24:21,22)Last I checked Australia is a part of this world. The world is kosmou. I assume that is the word we get Cosmos from.

 

[PlainWord]

"The Bible says there will be great tribulation in the world at the end of this age: "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved." (Matthew 24:21,22)Last I checked Australia is a part of this world. The world is kosmou. I assume that is the word we get Cosmos from.

It doesn't say that. Look at Young's Literal Translation. First look at the question, then verses 21-22:

1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,

2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

They asked when would the temple (and its buildings) be destroyed. They then asked what sign would there be of His presence and the end of their age, not ours. Notice the language used was "FULL END OF THE AGE?" These events are all linked without a 2,000 year gap. The disciples were just told that their world, as they knew it, was about to end. They have no interest in events of our day.

This is what Josephus writes concerning this:

But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages.

Full end of the age = Revolution of ages

They were both talking about the destruction of the temple and stating that this destruction would mark the full end of their age.

The age in question was the Mosaic Age or age of the Law. For centuries the temple was the symbol of God and the Law to the world. It had to go so that the Gentiles would realize that salvation was now available to them. Back to Mat 24.

15 `Whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever is reading let him observe)

16 then those in Judea -- let them flee to the mounts

21 for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.

22 And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened.

Only those in Judea need worry and the Luke 21 account makes it even clearer. Note where the A of D was standing, the temple. The temple is gone.

 

[iamsoandso]

We are not talking about the end. We are talking about the beginning of the church. I think that the Church began on the day of Pentecost when Peter was preaching in the upper room in the year 29 ad. That was 50 days after Passover and after Jesus was resurrected. So 2029 would be the 2,000 year anniversary of the Church. We can buy a cake and have a party that day.

.
What I am saying is it was the "end of an aeon/age" (one of the 7 days of Gen.2:4/ 7 1000 years), and the "beginning of the next" in the series(week) of seven...

In 2 Peter 3:18 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/3-18.htm Peter says "to him be the glory (both) now and to the day of eternity". The word translated "of eternity" is #165 https://biblehub.com/greek/165.htm aion/age . So if Peter says "both now and to the day of eternity" he is seeing the age he was in separate from the one he refers to as coming.

 

[iamsoandso]

"The Bible says there will be great tribulation in the world at the end of this age: "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved." (Matthew 24:21,22)Last I checked Australia is a part of this world. The world is kosmou. I assume that is the word we get Cosmos from.

Your saying there would be great tribulation in the world(Scripture your quoting) then showing Australia's fires as proof of the tribulation. So if you are here now and those fires are part of the tribulation then since you are still here you cannot be pre-tribulation and believe you are raptured prior to the tribulation.

 

[JohnR7]

Your saying there would be great tribulation in the world(Scripture your quoting) then showing Australia's fires as proof of the tribulation. So if you are here now and those fires are part of the tribulation then since you are still here you cannot be pre-tribulation and believe you are raptured prior to the tribulation.

I think we are in the final great harvest. More people will come to Christ in the next 10 years then ever before. As a dispensationalist I believe the church age is 2,000 years. Then the Kingdom Age will begin. There is a lot of teaching that there is a 7 year tribulation period between the Church Age and the Kingdom age. The Bible is not real clear about how we go from one age to the next.

I tend to believe one third of the people are going to be saved. This is based on the idea that one third is a few and two thirds is many. If you look at the origional language this is a possible understanding of what Jesus was teaching us. "And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’" (Zechariah13:8,9)

Usually a remnant or 10% of the population survive an extinction and repopulate the earth. We saw a major extinction around 12,000 years ago when the ice age ended. This is when the wholly Mammoths and Saber tooth tigers died off.