Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[UnitedWithChrist]

It seems you did not take a look at the verses I attached with this point in the chronology ^ .

I'd said:

"The "intervening" time-period is NOT "between His 2nd Coming/Return to the earth" [here] and the START of the MK age; but [instead]

"…[but] IS the MK age [the time-period between His "2nd Coming/Return to the earth [Rev19:19,21/16:14-16,20:5, i.e. the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22]" and the later "GWTj [Rev20:11-15, i.e. the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22!]"

So,

at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (which is when the Sheep and goat judgment/separation takes place), this is also when Revelation 19:21 takes place: "and the remnant WAS SLAIN" (the first of the two "punish" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], which is followed by a time-period [the MK age transpiring on the earth, minus the ones "SLAIN"] and then [after that] the second of the two "punish" words in Isa24:21-22 is carried out).

Once the "was slain" takes place at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (this being the SAME point in time as "And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT" of Matt25:46a, BECAUSE once a person DIES [Rev19:21] there is NO CHANGING their eternal status, so to speak; there is no "reversing" of the sentence, no further "opportunity" to change the outcome (the "sentence" is FOREVER SET). Yet the MK age will go on without them being present on the earth (this is the "time-period" that follows the first of the two "punish" words in Isa24:21-22[23]--and the second "punish" word in Isa24:21-22 is the later GWTj, but this does NOT mean that the earlier "punish" word was not an 'ETERNAL' SENTENCING, so to speak, for they DIED and there is no changing the verdict AFTER DEATH! It is ETERNAL).

One of the problems I have with investing much effort into understanding what a given dispie is claiming...there are so many different explanations that different dispies hold. If I figure out what one dispie is claiming, then the next time the verses are brough up, a different dispie is going to claim something else. It's like trying to nail jello to the wall.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

or he was slain before the foundation of the world, there is no difference.

The text states "slain FROM [apo]" not "slain BEFORE [pro]" which two distinct words (where used with the phrase "the foundation of the world" I DO believe are distinct and have distinct bearing on our understanding).

The Lamb's book of life being written before the foundation of the world means that his sacrifice was also determined before the foundation of the world, else the book would not be called the Lamb's book of life. Do you know the meaning behind the Passover lamb?

Perhaps you've not seen my post about how I believe the wording of Revelation 13:8 is not correct in the esv

The text does not state "written BEFORE [pro]" but rather states "slain FROM [apo]"... which makes a massive difference (and THAT verse has to do with "the Lamb's book of Life," in particular, which I believe refers to "all who are SAVED").



Also, I believe I had placed in brackets (in my previous post--note the enlarged point below) that Matt25:31-34 says, "having been prepared for you [the Sheep of the Gentiles/nations] FROM [apo, not BEFORE-pro SAID OF OTHERS ELSEWHERE] the foundation of the world" (which point I'd hoped the reader would take note of the DISTINCTION)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

One of the problems I have with investing much effort into understanding what a given dispie is claiming...there are so many different explanations that different dispies hold. If I figure out what one dispie is claiming, then the next time the verses are brough up, a different dispie is going to claim something else. It's like trying to nail jello to the wall.

Excuses, excuses


I'm merely pointing out the ABUNDANT scriptural references that ALL AGREE that there is "a time period" that FOLLOWS the Rev19 2nd Coming of our Lord to the earth, which the "amill-teachings" completely disregard.

Rev19:15b's "SHALL [FUTURE] shepherd them [the nations]" is merely one small phrase among TONS that show this...

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It seems you did not take a look at the verses I attached with this point in the chronology ^ .

I'd said:

"The "intervening" time-period is NOT "between His 2nd Coming/Return to the earth" [here] and the START of the MK age; but [instead]

"…[but] IS the MK age [the time-period between His "2nd Coming/Return to the earth [Rev19:19,21/16:14-16,20:5, i.e. the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22]" and the later "GWTj [Rev20:11-15, i.e. the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22!]"

So,

at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (which is when the Sheep and goat judgment/separation takes place), this is also when Revelation 19:21 takes place: "and the remnant WAS SLAIN" (the first of the two "punish" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], which is followed by a time-period [the MK age transpiring on the earth, minus the ones "SLAIN"] and then [after that] the second of the two "punish" words in Isa24:21-22 is carried out).

Once the "was slain" takes place at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (this being the SAME point in time as "And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT" of Matt25:46a, BECAUSE once a person DIES [Rev19:21] there is NO CHANGING their eternal status, so to speak; there is no "reversing" of the sentence, no further "opportunity" to change the outcome (the "sentence" is FOREVER SET). Yet the MK age will go on without them being present on the earth (this is the "time-period" that follows the first of the two "punish" words in Isa24:21-22[23]--and the second "punish" word in Isa24:21-22 is the later GWTj, but this does NOT mean that the earlier "punish" word was not an 'ETERNAL' SENTENCING, so to speak, for they DIED and there is no changing the verdict AFTER DEATH! It is ETERNAL).

OK..I challenge one of your dispy friends to explain this to me in a simple paragraph.

Regarding Is 24, this is not talking simply about humans, but about angelic powers and humans. Some of the angelic powers, as well as some humans, are actually in "prison" now, and have been there since before the Flood.

So, I'm not sure exactly how you are relating this to Rev. 19. I don't think it proves some long interim period, unless you are willing to acknowledge that this long interim period is between the time of their offense and the return of Jesus.

Isaiah 24:21-23
21 On that day the Lord will punish
the host of heaven, in heaven,
and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
22 They will be gathered together
as prisoners in a pit;
they will be shut up in a prison,
and after many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be confounded
and the sun ashamed,
for the Lord of hosts reigns
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and his glory will be before his elders.
(ESV)

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Excuses, excuses


I'm merely pointing out the ABUNDANT scriptural references that ALL AGREE that there is "a time period" that FOLLOWS the Rev19 2nd Coming of our Lord to the earth, which the "amill-teachings" completely disregard.

Rev19:15b's "SHALL [FUTURE] shepherd them [the nations]" is merely one small phrase among TONS that show this...

Sure there's a time period.

It's called the "eternal state", just prior to the resurrection (where death is defeated and doesn't exist past then). "New Heavens", "New Earth", "New Creation" are associated with it.

It extends throughout all eternity.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

OK..I challenge one of your dispy friends to explain this to me in a simple paragraph.

Regarding Is 24, this is not talking simply about humans, but about angelic powers and humans. Some of the angelic powers, as well as some humans, are actually in "prison" now, and have been there since before the Flood.

So, I'm not sure exactly how you are relating this to Rev. 19. I don't think it proves some long interim period, unless you are willing to acknowledge that this long interim period is between the time of their offense and the return of Jesus.

Isaiah 24:21-23
21 On that day the Lord will punish
the host of heaven, in heaven,
and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
22 They will be gathered together
as prisoners in a pit;
they will be shut up in a prison,
and after many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be confounded
and the sun ashamed,
for the Lord of hosts reigns
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and his glory will be before his elders.
(ESV)

Before this comes up, I believe Satan was defeated at the Cross in a definitive sense. And, many of the evil angels are imprisoned, along with those humans who are consigned to eternal punishment. I don't believe that hell, in the sense of eternal torment, exists yet, but those individuals are being held for judgment at Jesus' return.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Rev19:19,21/16:14-16,20:5, i.e. the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22


Many people acknowledge... "Isaiah 24-27" is known as "the little apocalypse" (speaking of "future" events that parallel [things in] Revelation [and you may recall my explanations of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" phrase in Rev1:1 referring to the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book of Rev, meaning, Rev1:1's "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" EQUALS Rev1:19c / 4:1 [/7:3] "FUTURE" specific, limited time period [7-yr trib] that leads UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Before this comes up, I believe Satan was defeated at the Cross in a definitive sense. And, many of the evil angels are imprisoned, along with those humans who are consigned to eternal punishment. I don't believe that hell, in the sense of eternal torment, exists yet, but those individuals are being held for judgment at Jesus' return.

I guess I see what Jesus stated in Luke 16 about the guy that Jesus referred to [whether literal or merely parable, does not matter!], as saying, "for I am tormented in this flame" while also saying "that thou wouldst send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they ALSO come into THIS PLACE OF TORMENT" that this shows that there still remains TIME for them (while still alive) to do something about their own destination, see... (IOW, this isn't showing the GWTj point in time--yet "tormented" is the condition of said person... I don't believe "tormented" is ever "relieved" for those who have died apart-from/without salvation [so in that sense is eternal / endless / forever / permanent])

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I guess I see what Jesus stated in Luke 16 about the guy that Jesus referred to [whether literal or merely parable, does not matter!], as saying, "for I am tormented in this flame" while also saying "that thou wouldst send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they ALSO come into THIS PLACE OF TORMENT" that this shows that there still remains TIME for them (while still alive) to do something about their own destination, see... (IOW, this isn't showing the GWTj point in time--yet "tormented" is the condition of said person... I don't believe "tormented" is ever "relieved" for those who have died apart-from/without salvation [so in that sense is eternal / endless / forever / permanent])

According to 2 Pet 2:4:

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Therefore, there are evil angels being held now for judgment, and that relates to your Isaiah 24 passage as it refers to the host of heaven as well.

2 Pet 2:9 says this:

then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

So there are wicked humans being held right now under punishment for the day of judgment.

 

[garee]

Why can't we simply say John 5:24 pertains to believers and Rev 20 applies to the rest of mankind?

They both apply to believers which is not the rest of mankind.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

According to 2 Pet 2:4:
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
Therefore, there are evil angels being held now for judgment, and that relates to your Isaiah 24 passage as it refers to the host of heaven as well.

2 Pet 2:9 says this:
then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
So there are wicked humans being held right now under punishment for the day of judgment.

I'm not denying that there are humans there right now.

What I'm denying is that they are the same humans being spoken of in the Rev19:21 point in the chronology [at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, where it says "and the remnant WAS SLAIN"];

...where, I am making the point, there is a "time period" BETWEEN the two "punish" words of Isaiah 24:21-22[23]…

so... [sequence is]
1) "PUNISH" at the Rev19:21 point in time [Isa24:21-22a]…;
2) then the "time period" [both in Rev20:3b,4b,5b and Isa24:22b as well as other passages]…;
3) then the second of the two "PUNISH" words takes place [Rev20:11-15 GWTj and Isa24:22b the SECOND "punish" word of that passage is carried out];

this is the sequence/chronology that both passages [and others] present and which the "amill-teachings" completely disregard

 

[garee]

The text states "slain FROM [apo]" not "slain BEFORE [pro]" which two distinct words (where used with the phrase "the foundation of the world" I DO believe are distinct and have distinct bearing on our understanding).




Perhaps you've not seen my post about how I believe the wording of Revelation 13:8 is not correct in the esv

The text does not state "written BEFORE [pro]" but rather states "slain FROM [apo]"... which makes a massive difference (and THAT verse has to do with "the Lamb's book of Life," in particular, which I believe refers to "all who are SAVED").



Also, I believe I had placed in brackets (in my previous post--note the enlarged point below) that Matt25:31-34 says, "having been prepared for you [the Sheep of the Gentiles/nations] FROM [apo, not BEFORE-pro SAID OF OTHERS ELSEWHERE] the foundation of the world" (which point I'd hoped the reader would take note of the DISTINCTION)

Yes from the six days God did work of his labor of Love .Rested on the 7th. same rest we have today

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I'm not denying that there are humans there right now.

What I'm denying is that they are the same humans being spoken of in the Rev19:21 point in the chronology [at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, where it says "and the remnant WAS SLAIN"];

...where, I am making the point, there is a "time period" BETWEEN the two "punish" words of Isaiah 24:21-22[23]…

so... [sequence is]
1) "PUNISH" at the Rev19:21 point in time [Isa24:21-22a]…;
2) then the "time period" [both in Rev20:3b,4b,5b and Isa24:22b as well as other passages]…;
3) then the second of the two "PUNISH" words takes place [Rev20:11-15 GWTj and Isa24:22b the SECOND "punish" word of that passage is carried out];

this is the sequence/chronology that both passages [and others] present and which the "amill-teachings" completely disregard

Can you conclusively and irrefutably relate the two passages?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I'm not denying that there are humans there right now.

What I'm denying is that they are the same humans being spoken of in the Rev19:21 point in the chronology [at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, where it says "and the remnant WAS SLAIN"];

...where, I am making the point, there is a "time period" BETWEEN the two "punish" words of Isaiah 24:21-22[23]…

so... [sequence is]
1) "PUNISH" at the Rev19:21 point in time [Isa24:21-22a]…;
2) then the "time period" [both in Rev20:3b,4b,5b and Isa24:22b as well as other passages]…;
3) then the second of the two "PUNISH" words takes place [Rev20:11-15 GWTj and Isa24:22b the SECOND "punish" word of that passage is carried out];

this is the sequence/chronology that both passages [and others] present and which the "amill-teachings" completely disregard

By the way, there's only one dispensationalist that I consider to be a sound biblical scholar, and that's John MacArthur. I don't agree with him on those topics, but I do respect him on non-dispensational topics.

There are a lot who are historical premillennialists that I would bother to read.

There's much more amillennialists that I would read.

That's where I am with it.

Of course, when you consider the dispensationalist camp, you're basically including Pentecostals and a lot of charismatics, so that skews my opinion considerably.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Can you conclusively and irrefutably relate the two passages?

What I think you are trying to do, is to say that...

"Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5" does not take place at the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth/His "RETURN"

… am I reading you right?

[the bold referring to "the kings of the earth [upon the earth]" in both Rev19:19/16:14-16 and Isa24:21]

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Matthew 25 is speaking of a judgment [/separation] of "still-living" persons [of the nations (plural)] at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth; the judgment/separation has to do with who will ENTER the MK age (NO "RESURRECTION" is taking place in this chpt (nor in Matt13 upon which His disciples' Q of Him in Matt24:3 was BASED, and which kicks off this whole two-chpt answer/response by Him [note: v.25:40,45 "the least of these My brethren" is not speaking of those BEING judged/separated here (the Sheep/goats, by contrast, are "of the nations [PLURAL]" who are the ones being judged/separated in view of how they themselves either AIDED [/blessed] "the least of these My brethren, or did NOT do so)]



The "intervening" time-period is NOT "between His 2nd Coming/Return to the earth" [here] and the START of the MK age; but [instead]

…[but] IS the MK age [the time-period between His "2nd Coming/Return to the earth [Rev19:19,21/16:14-16,20:5, i.e. the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22]" and the later "GWTj [Rev20:11-15, i.e. the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22!]



And I encourage the readers to not disregard all of the timing- and chronology- and sequence-clues and wordings which are abundant, but which the "amill-teachings" [and others] thoroughly disregard, as though insignificant and of no matter/consequence



Both the Isa passage I supplied and the Rev passages I supplied (which are parallel) tell of a time period which FOLLOWS the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" events. ("amill-teachings" disregard this, in order to hold to its viewpoint)



K, I'm just saying that 1Cor15:24's " *THEN the end" does not mean what the "amill-teachings" insist that it does, when THEY read it to be saying "then immediately [/right then] the end" [as tho nothing further is left to happen, His reign has already (at this point) accomplished "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death," according to their "chronology" which misses the chronology and timing issues (in abundance) provided in Scripture]; and

...rather than what Revelation 19:15b's wording says in its "FUTURE tense" [at that point] "And He SHALL shepherd them [/the nations] with a rod [/sceptre] of iron [righteousness and strength]" where the wording of 1Tim6:15 parallels also Rev19:16, and 1Tim6:15 [one of only 2x "KING" is used in all of the epistles] is also "FUTURE"... "SHALL SHEW [/openly manifest]" (and which SEQUENCE "agrees" with other passages such as Dan7:27 [following the specific time-slot in v.25] and where that says, "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven"... [too many more...]


* THIS "THEN" is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY with NO "TIME-ELEMENT" attached, and the LIST is telling the SEQUENCE;

By the way, it's going to be my contention that your interpretation is not as clear and straightforward as mine..the last line says that one group goes to eternal life and the other goes to eternal punishment.

I realize that ANY group can wrangle some kind of "rescue device" in order to "defeat" the other view on virtually any passage, but I think a straightforward reading would indicate that the judgment of ALL NATIONS occurs at Jesus' return, and it is a judgment to eternal life or eternal death.

It's only when one presupposes Rev 20 in a premillennial context that it becomes necessary to wrangle the text.

By the way...there are other NT verses in the same vein. I will move on to the next one.

This is why I rejected premillennialism....outside of Revelation 20 and the premillennial interpretation of it, I don't think most would hold this view.

That's one reason why I became amillennial..the other is that I noticed the battles at the end of the Millennium and at the beginning of the Millennium (according to the dispie view), and realized they are the same battle. It's too much of a coincidence not to be.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

What I think you are trying to do, is to say that...

"Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5" does not take place at the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth/His "RETURN"

… am I reading you right?

[the bold referring to "the kings of the earth [upon the earth]" in both Rev19:19/16:14-16 and Isa24]

No....I do believe there will be a battle at the return of Christ.

The claim I would have is that you can't prove conclusively that Is. 24 is related....

For one thing, there is more than one day of God's punishment (whether it's called "day of the Lord" or whatever). The verse could apply to judgment upon nations at Isaiah's time. He mentions a litany of them.

So, if you're attempting to use Isaiah 24 to posit a period of time between the return of Christ and the punishment of the wicked, I think you're misusing the text because you're making a lot of assumptions. First, you have to prove that these prisoners are being held between the return of Jesus and their demise at the end of your "Millennium" in Isaiah 24.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

and realized they are the same battle. It's too much of a coincidence not to be.

If I (in order to support "dispensational viewpoint") used "it's too much of a COINCIDENCE not to be" as my argument, it would not suffice for you... because I already showed you how the two passages of Rev19:19[21]/16:14-16/[20:5] PARALLELS the first of two "punish" words in Isaiah 24:21-22a, and you said that "coincidence" was not sufficient to convince you.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So, if you're attempting to use Isaiah 24 to posit a period of time between the return of Christ and the punishment of the wicked, I think you're misusing the text because

NO.

I said that is the point in time of the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22... Now here you are CHANGING my words/point, to have it say something I DID NOT SAY.

They [the ones in Rev19:19,21/16:14-16] ARE "PUNISHED" at the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words... then a time period follows that... then the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words is carried out


[point being, BOTH Rev19-20[/16:14-16] *AND* Isaiah 24:21-22a/22b show a TIME PERIOD which SEPARATES *two distinct PUNISH* words/events]

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

NO.

I said that is the point in time of the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22... Now here you are CHANGING my words/point, to have it say something I DID NOT SAY.

They [the ones in Rev19:19,21/16:14-16] ARE "PUNISHED" at the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words... then a time period follows that... then the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words is carried out


[point being, BOTH Rev19-20[/16:14-16] *AND* Isaiah 24:21-22a/22b show a TIME PERIOD which SEPARATES *two distinct PUNISH* words/events]

OK, if I understand you correctly, you are saying because there are instances where the word "punish" is used twice indicating the same event, this means that the punishment of Matthew 25 follows the same pattern?

If so, then I'd ask what coherent hermeneutic suggests this?