Hell, Sheol, Hades, etc...
- Thread starter John146
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What I know is that Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that very same day, i.e. their spirits. I also know that when Jesus resurrected He told Mary not to hold on to Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father. Therefore, the paradise that I believe Jesus was speaking about, was that same place of comfort in Hades where Abraham and Lazarus were:
"But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are in agony."
What we can deduce from this is that, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were all in the same place of Sheol/Hades, which was separated by a great chasm. One side was a place of comfort/paradise and the other side a place of torment in flame. Since we are talking about this, I would also draw your attention to the fact that the context also mentions other people being there other than Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man. Regarding this, consider the following:
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
The "those" in the scripture above, would infer others besides Abraham and Lazarus who would want to cross over from the place of comfort to the place of torment. And the word "anyone" crossing over from the place of torment would refer to others besides the rich man in the place of torment.
Now Paul said that he was caught up to the third heaven, which he also referred to as paradise in the same verse. However, in using the word paradise, he was obviously speaking about the third heaven and not the place of comfort located under the earth in Sheol/Hades. Likewise, since Jesus told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father, then the place of paradise must be somewhere else other than heaven, which to me would be that place of comfort in Sheol/Hades. When Jesus said that "the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, I believe that He was referring to His body being in the tomb and His spirit being in that place of comfort/paradise.
"But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are in agony."
What we can deduce from this is that, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were all in the same place of Sheol/Hades, which was separated by a great chasm. One side was a place of comfort/paradise and the other side a place of torment in flame. Since we are talking about this, I would also draw your attention to the fact that the context also mentions other people being there other than Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man. Regarding this, consider the following:
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
The "those" in the scripture above, would infer others besides Abraham and Lazarus who would want to cross over from the place of comfort to the place of torment. And the word "anyone" crossing over from the place of torment would refer to others besides the rich man in the place of torment.
Now Paul said that he was caught up to the third heaven, which he also referred to as paradise in the same verse. However, in using the word paradise, he was obviously speaking about the third heaven and not the place of comfort located under the earth in Sheol/Hades. Likewise, since Jesus told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father, then the place of paradise must be somewhere else other than heaven, which to me would be that place of comfort in Sheol/Hades. When Jesus said that "the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, I believe that He was referring to His body being in the tomb and His spirit being in that place of comfort/paradise.
-
1
- Show all
I totally agree with what you said about paradise being Abraham’s bosom, but I disagree that the place they were in was called Sheol. That’s not in the Scripture. Sheol is a place of torment and was located across the gulf from paradise. Paradise was not in Sheol or hell. It was it’s own separate place.
Yes the word hell is used to refer to the lake of fire. I provided the scripture for you in a previous post! Here it is again:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - KJV
The word Gehenna is translated as hell in the verse above, which is the Greek word representing the lake of fire:
Strong's Concordance
geenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
Original Word: γέεννα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: geenna
Phonetic Spelling: (gheh'-en-nah)
Definition: Gehenna, a valley west and South of Jerusalem, also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
HELPS Word-studies
1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).
Please take notice of what I have emboldened in red above.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - KJV
The word Gehenna is translated as hell in the verse above, which is the Greek word representing the lake of fire:
Strong's Concordance
geenna: Gehenna, a valley W. and South of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
Original Word: γέεννα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: geenna
Phonetic Spelling: (gheh'-en-nah)
Definition: Gehenna, a valley west and South of Jerusalem, also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
HELPS Word-studies
1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).
Please take notice of what I have emboldened in red above.
I started out with the KJV and read it for years and then went to the NIV. And for many years now, I compare verses in parallel to see the other translations. Why restrict yourself to one translation when you can study all of them, which in turn gives you a better understanding of what is being said?
About the seventh trumpet. If you going to analyse it properly...it is the last trumpet given to seven angels... so to read it. The seventh angel sounded the last trumpet.
About paradise....there is no problem applying this to the paradise mentioned by Jesus.
The problem lies on one interpretation on where lazarus was...
About paradise....there is no problem applying this to the paradise mentioned by Jesus.
The problem lies on one interpretation on where lazarus was...
Once again, "Abraham's Bosom" is not a proper name for the place where Abraham and Lazarus were. What the verse says is that Lazarus was taken to Abraham's side. Then as we read the context, we find that the rich man went to Hades and was able to see and speak with Abraham. The rich man was in an area of torment in flame, where Abraham and Lazarus were in a place of comfort. However, the fact that they could still see each other and have a conversation and the fact that there was a great chasm separating the two areas, tells me that Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were all under the earth in Sheol/Hades but separated by a chasm. Only the side that the rich man was in was a place of torment. The other side that Abraham and Lazarus were on was a place of comfort. Abraham's bosom is referring to Lazarus being taken to his side. Abraham's bosom is not a proper name for their location.
I would urge you to read the entire event of the rich man and Lazarus and look at every detail of the context. Consider the following major parallel translations regarding this issue:
Strong's Concordance
kolpos: the bosom
Original Word: κόλπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kolpos
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-pos)
Definition: the bosom
Usage: (a) sing. and plur: bosom; (sinus) the overhanging fold of the garment used as a pocket, (b) a bay, gulf.
HELPS Word-studies
2859 kólpos – properly, the upper part of the chest where a garment naturally folded to form a "pocket" – called the "bosom," the position synonymous with intimacy (union).
New International Version
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
English Standard Version
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Berean Study Bible
One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried.
Berean Literal Bible
And it came to pass that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and was buried.
New American Standard Bible
"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
New King James Version
So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
King James Bible
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Christian Standard Bible
One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Contemporary English Version
The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
International Standard Version
"One day, the beggar died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
NET Bible
"Now the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
New Heart English Bible
It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But that poor man died and Angels brought him to The Bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and he was buried.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
"One day the beggar died, and the angels carried him to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
New American Standard 1977
“Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Jubilee Bible 2000
And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died and was buried;
King James 2000 Bible
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
American King James Version
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
American Standard Version
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
Darby Bible Translation
And it came to pass that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and was buried.
English Revised Version
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
Webster's Bible Translation
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried:
Weymouth New Testament
"But in course of time the beggar died; and he was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and had a funeral.
World English Bible
It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried.
Young's Literal Translation
'And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham -- and the rich man also died, and was buried;
I would urge you to read the entire event of the rich man and Lazarus and look at every detail of the context. Consider the following major parallel translations regarding this issue:
Strong's Concordance
kolpos: the bosom
Original Word: κόλπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kolpos
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-pos)
Definition: the bosom
Usage: (a) sing. and plur: bosom; (sinus) the overhanging fold of the garment used as a pocket, (b) a bay, gulf.
HELPS Word-studies
2859 kólpos – properly, the upper part of the chest where a garment naturally folded to form a "pocket" – called the "bosom," the position synonymous with intimacy (union).
New International Version
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
English Standard Version
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Berean Study Bible
One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried.
Berean Literal Bible
And it came to pass that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and was buried.
New American Standard Bible
"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
New King James Version
So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
King James Bible
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Christian Standard Bible
One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Contemporary English Version
The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
International Standard Version
"One day, the beggar died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
NET Bible
"Now the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
New Heart English Bible
It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“But that poor man died and Angels brought him to The Bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and he was buried.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
"One day the beggar died, and the angels carried him to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
New American Standard 1977
“Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Jubilee Bible 2000
And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died and was buried;
King James 2000 Bible
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
American King James Version
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
American Standard Version
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
Darby Bible Translation
And it came to pass that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and was buried.
English Revised Version
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
Webster's Bible Translation
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried:
Weymouth New Testament
"But in course of time the beggar died; and he was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and had a funeral.
World English Bible
It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried.
Young's Literal Translation
'And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham -- and the rich man also died, and was buried;
Well, wait a minute! You said that Hell was not used in reference to the lake of fire. So, let's agree that hell was and is used to refer to the lake of fire. I agree with you that the lake of fire is the final place of punishment. However, our issue here is that Hades, Tartartus and Gehenna are all translated as hell in the KJV, yet they are three individual places, two being under the earth and the location of the lake of fire is not given.
While it is true that the seventh angel has the last of the seven trumpets, that seventh trumpet could not be construed as the "last trumpet" that Paul was speaking of. For one, Revelation hadn't been revealed yet. And two, the "last trumpet" signals the resurrection and catching up of the church, which is a blessed event. Where the angels with their seven trumpets belong to God's outpouring of wrath during the tribulation period. In addition, there is nothing in the context that mentions the church being gathered at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, but instead is when Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth.
Why would determining where Lazarus was be a problem? The scripture states the following:
"One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
Therefore, if Lazarus was taken to Abraham's side and the rich man being in Hades/sheol could see Abraham and Lazarus by his side, the only conclusion is that they are in the same place, but separated by that great chasm. We know from other scriptures that sheol is synonymous with Hades, i.e. they are the same place.
Why would determining where Lazarus was be a problem? The scripture states the following:
"One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
Therefore, if Lazarus was taken to Abraham's side and the rich man being in Hades/sheol could see Abraham and Lazarus by his side, the only conclusion is that they are in the same place, but separated by that great chasm. We know from other scriptures that sheol is synonymous with Hades, i.e. they are the same place.
Well, since all of the translations say pretty much the same thing and the words Abraham's Bosom is not a proper name for that place, but is describing Lazarus at Abraham's side, I would say that each of those translations are valid.
The KJV is not a good translation to begin with. We much better translations available. That is why I said that you should compare the translations. Otherwise you are just restricting your studies.
The KJV is not a good translation to begin with. We much better translations available. That is why I said that you should compare the translations. Otherwise you are just restricting your studies.
-
1
- Show all
Here's a good example of what I am talking about:
King James Bible
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
========================================================================
New International Version
"If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people.
New Living Translation
Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.
English Standard Version
If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.
=====================================================================
Now, I just a used a couple of translation comparisons to the KJV. Notice that the KJV has the meaning of "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity" meaning that if someone, in this case the saints, leads anyone into captivity he himself will go into captivity. Likewise, the KJV says, "he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." This would mean that the scripture is saying that any of the saints who lead someone else into captivity that they themselves will also be taken into captivity. And that any saint who kills with the sword, he too must be killed with the sword. This is a good example of a bad translation.
The other translations are correct, in that the scripture is saying that if it is God's destiny for a saint during that time is to be taken into captivity, then into captivity he will go. Likewise, if it is God's destiny for a saint is to be killed with a sword (weapon), then he will be killed with a sword. Whatever God's fate is for each saint, it will require their patient endurance.
So, in this case the KJV has the translation wrong. For we know that the great tribulation saints are not going to be taking people into captivity nor will they be killing people with the swords.
These are just examples so that you can do an unbias study and come to a right conclusion.
Broaden your horizon of God's word John.
King James Bible
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
========================================================================
New International Version
"If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people.
New Living Translation
Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.
English Standard Version
If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.
=====================================================================
Now, I just a used a couple of translation comparisons to the KJV. Notice that the KJV has the meaning of "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity" meaning that if someone, in this case the saints, leads anyone into captivity he himself will go into captivity. Likewise, the KJV says, "he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword." This would mean that the scripture is saying that any of the saints who lead someone else into captivity that they themselves will also be taken into captivity. And that any saint who kills with the sword, he too must be killed with the sword. This is a good example of a bad translation.
The other translations are correct, in that the scripture is saying that if it is God's destiny for a saint during that time is to be taken into captivity, then into captivity he will go. Likewise, if it is God's destiny for a saint is to be killed with a sword (weapon), then he will be killed with a sword. Whatever God's fate is for each saint, it will require their patient endurance.
So, in this case the KJV has the translation wrong. For we know that the great tribulation saints are not going to be taking people into captivity nor will they be killing people with the swords.
These are just examples so that you can do an unbias study and come to a right conclusion.
Broaden your horizon of God's word John.
-
1
- Show all