Hell, Sheol, Hades, etc...
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What happened to the rich man was a great tragedy aswell isn't... he died and in hell...do you not consider that hyperbolic?
I am not saying that the possibility that they are in the same place different compartment is wrong. But i do not dismiss either the possibility that their location is in different places and their conversation is to show that one cannot pass to another side.
The conversation the abraham with the rich man was like the example i mentioned. Like God hearing the cry of abels blood. And the conversation of God and the souls under the altar.
I am not saying that the possibility that they are in the same place different compartment is wrong. But i do not dismiss either the possibility that their location is in different places and their conversation is to show that one cannot pass to another side.
The conversation the abraham with the rich man was like the example i mentioned. Like God hearing the cry of abels blood. And the conversation of God and the souls under the altar.
Ahwatukee
I think we have different understanding of the church.
For me. The first members of the church were Jews then it spread to the gentiles.
In revelation the saints are overcome by the beast...
You probably on the other hand do not consider these saints members of the church.
Those jews who believed today, are they not members of the church?
I think we have different understanding of the church.
For me. The first members of the church were Jews then it spread to the gentiles.
In revelation the saints are overcome by the beast...
You probably on the other hand do not consider these saints members of the church.
Those jews who believed today, are they not members of the church?
I would offer. We are free to believe according to the signified language of Revelation 1. Some would seem literalize some of it away others not as much other beyond finding out by comparing the spiritual to the same unseen spiritual . .. And its not that the bible is literally historallly actuate an account as God's witness. But it would seem also a hidden understanding that I would call gospel understanding. The living word working as a living hope through the ceremonies. The shadow of the unseen glory. Therefore through the unseen understanding as living hope ...…. the suffering of Christ before hand and the glory to follow. Christians on this side of the reformation look back to that same lively demonstration. Both sides receiving the end of their new born again faith from hearing of His faith. . . our beginning and living hope.
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter1:9-11
The graves were opened. The mansion with many rooms was prepared, the veil was rent, the old testament saints entered in witnessed by many angels.
It would seem from my perspective. If we ignore it. . . then we can make it (the signified) say whatever we want.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 1:1
The book of Revelation I would offer is represented from the last day, used 6 times in John the end of time. . the day of the Lord Revelation 1:10 looking back.
And like another poster mentioned Chapter 11 ends with the last day, the last trump, the walls of judgement fell. Death as to the "letter of the law" was cast into the judgment of God. Never to rise and condemn again through corruption, another creation.
And the next chapter 12 a beautiful parable as picture of the virgin bride of Christ, the church .Clothed with the righteousness of her husband, as bright as the Sun. The Sun and moon under her feet. Its the end of time. no more night the glory of God and the lamb will be the light. "God is Light" in him no darkness or night. A reminder. Walk in the light while we do have it. Now is the time God accepts the good works we offer in respect to His name. When two or three gather together He is there is Spirit as it is written.
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter1:9-11
The graves were opened. The mansion with many rooms was prepared, the veil was rent, the old testament saints entered in witnessed by many angels.
It would seem from my perspective. If we ignore it. . . then we can make it (the signified) say whatever we want.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 1:1
The book of Revelation I would offer is represented from the last day, used 6 times in John the end of time. . the day of the Lord Revelation 1:10 looking back.
And like another poster mentioned Chapter 11 ends with the last day, the last trump, the walls of judgement fell. Death as to the "letter of the law" was cast into the judgment of God. Never to rise and condemn again through corruption, another creation.
And the next chapter 12 a beautiful parable as picture of the virgin bride of Christ, the church .Clothed with the righteousness of her husband, as bright as the Sun. The Sun and moon under her feet. Its the end of time. no more night the glory of God and the lamb will be the light. "God is Light" in him no darkness or night. A reminder. Walk in the light while we do have it. Now is the time God accepts the good works we offer in respect to His name. When two or three gather together He is there is Spirit as it is written.
While it is a tragedy, the same thing that happened to the rich man takes place 24/7. The spirits of the unsaved continue to pour into Sheol/Hades day and night in mass quantities.
Your comparison is not equal. The phrase "their cries reached to the gates of heaven" simply means that it was a great tragedy. At the same time, and as I said, I'm sure that God and the angels were well aware of that event. The rich man and Lazarus is neither hyperbolic nor a parable, as some claim, but a real event revealed by the Lord. Parables use symbolism to represent what is literal, seed = God's word, wheat = the righteous, weeds = the wicked, harvest = end of the age, etc. In opposition, the event of the rich man and Lazarus uses the names of real people, Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, mentions the prophets, his father and five brothers, as well as the literal place of Hades.
According to the context, the rich man and Lazarus was a real event which most likely the Lord observed and recounted prior to His appearing as a human being.
The message is that, we see two men who were alive and then who die. But then the spirits of both are conscious and aware after the death of their bodies. There is a place of comfort for the righteous and a place of torment for the wicked. Once there, there is no second chance for salvation. For the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to his fathers house to warn his brothers so that they wouldn't also come to that place of torment, but it was not permitted. Regarding Hades, Revelation 20:13 reveals that the spirits of the unrighteous will be released from Hades and resurrected, only to stand before God at the great white throne judgment for their official (legal) trial.
Your comparison is not equal. The phrase "their cries reached to the gates of heaven" simply means that it was a great tragedy. At the same time, and as I said, I'm sure that God and the angels were well aware of that event. The rich man and Lazarus is neither hyperbolic nor a parable, as some claim, but a real event revealed by the Lord. Parables use symbolism to represent what is literal, seed = God's word, wheat = the righteous, weeds = the wicked, harvest = end of the age, etc. In opposition, the event of the rich man and Lazarus uses the names of real people, Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, mentions the prophets, his father and five brothers, as well as the literal place of Hades.
According to the context, the rich man and Lazarus was a real event which most likely the Lord observed and recounted prior to His appearing as a human being.
The message is that, we see two men who were alive and then who die. But then the spirits of both are conscious and aware after the death of their bodies. There is a place of comfort for the righteous and a place of torment for the wicked. Once there, there is no second chance for salvation. For the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to his fathers house to warn his brothers so that they wouldn't also come to that place of torment, but it was not permitted. Regarding Hades, Revelation 20:13 reveals that the spirits of the unrighteous will be released from Hades and resurrected, only to stand before God at the great white throne judgment for their official (legal) trial.
Revelation 1:19 is the key to understanding the chronology of Revelation, when John was told to write:
What you have seen = Everything recorded from Rev.1:1 thru Rev.1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period
What will take place later = What takes place after the "what is now," i.e. what takes place after the church period
We are still in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. Once the church is gathered, then the "what must take place later" will begin, which is the time when God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
In further support of this, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then is never used again within the narrative of God's wrath.
Also, Revelation 4:1 is what I call a prophetic allusion. The voice which John heard in Rev.1:10 which sounds like a trumpet, is identified as being the Lord's voice saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," i.e. after the "what is now" or after the church period. After this event the word church is never seen again until Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative and in the epilog. The word "hagios" translated "saints" is used from chapter 4 onward and is referring to the great tribulation saints, which will be those who will have become believers in Christ after the church has been removed from the earth. Also, I believe that the voice that sounds like a trumpet, is synonymous with the "trumpet of God" found in I Thess.4:16 when the dead rise and the living are changed and caught up.
We are told over and over that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, the church must be removed prior to the time of God's wrath. Those who claim that God is going to protect the church during the time of His wrath, do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. As an example, with just the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, over half the earths population is killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. This great number of fatalities are supported by what Jesus said below:
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would survive. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.
What you have seen = Everything recorded from Rev.1:1 thru Rev.1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period
What will take place later = What takes place after the "what is now," i.e. what takes place after the church period
We are still in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. Once the church is gathered, then the "what must take place later" will begin, which is the time when God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
In further support of this, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then is never used again within the narrative of God's wrath.
Also, Revelation 4:1 is what I call a prophetic allusion. The voice which John heard in Rev.1:10 which sounds like a trumpet, is identified as being the Lord's voice saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," i.e. after the "what is now" or after the church period. After this event the word church is never seen again until Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative and in the epilog. The word "hagios" translated "saints" is used from chapter 4 onward and is referring to the great tribulation saints, which will be those who will have become believers in Christ after the church has been removed from the earth. Also, I believe that the voice that sounds like a trumpet, is synonymous with the "trumpet of God" found in I Thess.4:16 when the dead rise and the living are changed and caught up.
We are told over and over that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, the church must be removed prior to the time of God's wrath. Those who claim that God is going to protect the church during the time of His wrath, do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. As an example, with just the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, over half the earths population is killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. This great number of fatalities are supported by what Jesus said below:
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would survive. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.
What I have been trying to tell you is that, the area is not called Abraham's Bosom, as that is not the proper name for the place, but that Lazarus was taken to Abraham side/bosom. The entire place is sheol/Hades which was/is divided into two areas, that place of comfort and the place of torment in flame which were separated by a great chasm.
I consider all the translations and use them all in my studies. Just referring to the KJV is restricting your studies. Don't you think that God is able to use scholars and translators to bring us better translations? That is why it is good to compare them.
By the way, there is no Ephesus age or Laodicean age, etc. Each of those types of seven churches have existed throughout the entire church age and will continue to exist right up to when the Lord gathers the church. In other words, we can find the same characteristics and rebukes within the churches today. what you would be suggesting is that only the characteristics of the Laodicean church exist today and that is just not true. For example, I'm sure that there are many congregations who have abandoned their first love, which were the characteristics of the Ephesian church. Then you have the churches of Pergamum and Thyatira who had those who were eating food sacrificed to idols and committing sexual immorality. Though today believers in Christ are not eating foods sacrificed to idols, there are many who are committing sexual immorality within the church world-wide.
I have used the following for many years, for comparing translations and word studies. Check it out.
https://biblehub.com/
By the way, there is no Ephesus age or Laodicean age, etc. Each of those types of seven churches have existed throughout the entire church age and will continue to exist right up to when the Lord gathers the church. In other words, we can find the same characteristics and rebukes within the churches today. what you would be suggesting is that only the characteristics of the Laodicean church exist today and that is just not true. For example, I'm sure that there are many congregations who have abandoned their first love, which were the characteristics of the Ephesian church. Then you have the churches of Pergamum and Thyatira who had those who were eating food sacrificed to idols and committing sexual immorality. Though today believers in Christ are not eating foods sacrificed to idols, there are many who are committing sexual immorality within the church world-wide.
I have used the following for many years, for comparing translations and word studies. Check it out.
https://biblehub.com/
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Letter to the seven churches are actual churches during John's days...
The voice to come up here...
You are having difficulty to believe when the 7th angel sounded the last trumpet and here you are considering the voice as the sound of trumpet.
Read rev 11...you will also sèe "come up here + trumpet +rewards..
The saints are protected??? On the contrary the saints are overcome by the beast. But during the bowl of wrath...those who have the mark will be affected.
When you die today? Does that mean you experienced thee wrath of God?
And its no difference if you die during those period...however you die you still die...the early members were crucified and burnt to crisp. Did they experience the wrath of God?
Understand the wrath of God...
Truly the world will experience devastating events and people die. (Heb 9:27)...but fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul...
The voice to come up here...
You are having difficulty to believe when the 7th angel sounded the last trumpet and here you are considering the voice as the sound of trumpet.
Read rev 11...you will also sèe "come up here + trumpet +rewards..
The saints are protected??? On the contrary the saints are overcome by the beast. But during the bowl of wrath...those who have the mark will be affected.
When you die today? Does that mean you experienced thee wrath of God?
And its no difference if you die during those period...however you die you still die...the early members were crucified and burnt to crisp. Did they experience the wrath of God?
Understand the wrath of God...
Truly the world will experience devastating events and people die. (Heb 9:27)...but fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul...
In a very concise nutshell it goes like this:
Church Age (where Gentiles eyes are opened and Israel is blinded) is coming to an end. It will end with the rapture of the True church. Then.........
Those left behind will be primarily three groups of Gentiles:
1. unbelievers who never believed - the vast majority of people - they will be willing to worship the beast.
2.Those who in the church did not cleanse themselves of their filthy acts and works - who still do not repent - and begin to worship the beast
3. A small remnant of Gentiles who also did not forsake all to follow Christ, but are now cut to the heart that they missed the rapture. It is these who are the saints referred to above who will be persecuted unto death because they refuse to worship the beast.
During this period the Gentiles as a corporate body will be blinded, and once again Israel's eyes will be opened in fulfillment of many scriptures pointing to this fact. Israel (the woman) will be pursued but there will be supernatural protection upon a number of these in Israel (a remnant will be saved according to Election).
Just before Jesus returns there will be a second rapture (mainly believing Israel and some remnant Gentiles who have escaped the persecution of the beast).
Both these raptures are referred to in the scriptures. You just need to know where to look
.
Church Age (where Gentiles eyes are opened and Israel is blinded) is coming to an end. It will end with the rapture of the True church. Then.........
Those left behind will be primarily three groups of Gentiles:
1. unbelievers who never believed - the vast majority of people - they will be willing to worship the beast.
2.Those who in the church did not cleanse themselves of their filthy acts and works - who still do not repent - and begin to worship the beast
3. A small remnant of Gentiles who also did not forsake all to follow Christ, but are now cut to the heart that they missed the rapture. It is these who are the saints referred to above who will be persecuted unto death because they refuse to worship the beast.
During this period the Gentiles as a corporate body will be blinded, and once again Israel's eyes will be opened in fulfillment of many scriptures pointing to this fact. Israel (the woman) will be pursued but there will be supernatural protection upon a number of these in Israel (a remnant will be saved according to Election).
Just before Jesus returns there will be a second rapture (mainly believing Israel and some remnant Gentiles who have escaped the persecution of the beast).
Both these raptures are referred to in the scriptures. You just need to know where to look
.