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You deny the use of those arguments, but the foundation of your argument is classically greek, in that the study of the nature of man leads us to an understanding of the nature of God, whereas in Scripture it is the study of the nature of God that gives understanding to the nature of man. For man to be made in the image of God does not give us insight into his incommunicable attributes or his eternal nature, for we are mortal, and God cannot be reduced to a divine human being.
Using greek definitions from Strong's is not an argument, since Hebrew and Greek are neither inspired or divine languages, and only hold weight in the context in which those words are used.
The doctrine of the trinity does not deny that God is one, or teach that God is three, but in some mysterious way, God is both three and one at the same time. It is an element of his eternal nature that the human mind cannot fully comprehend, but recognize it as the solution that harmonizes Scripture.
It tickles me to no end when men say we cannot know what God looks like. He plainly said we are made in his Image, reflection, likeness, etc. Look in a mirror & you get the basics of what God looks like. We look basically like him. Most people are afraid to look into the eyes of the person who looks back at them in the mirror everyday. Look Deep you might discover something you never knew before!!
You deny the use of those arguments, but the foundation of your argument is classically greek, in that the study of the nature of man leads us to an understanding of the nature of God, whereas in Scripture it is the study of the nature of God that gives understanding to the nature of man. For man to be made in the image of God does not give us insight into his incommunicable attributes or his eternal nature, for we are mortal, and God cannot be reduced to a divine human being.
Using greek definitions from Strong's is not an argument, since Hebrew and Greek are neither inspired or divine languages, and only hold weight in the context in which those words are used.
The doctrine of the trinity does not deny that God is one, or teach that God is three, but in some mysterious way, God is both three and one at the same time. It is an element of his eternal nature that the human mind cannot fully comprehend, but recognize it as the solution that harmonizes Scripture.
That's humorous and evasive. Trinity is nothing if not Greek. Scripture says God's Soul/The Father is well pleased in the Son. IOW... all rhetoric from you and no scripture. And... now scripture isn't inspired in its original language.
So you have no intention of attempting to support Trinity. I've seen this a thousand times. You join the ranks of all the rest who have no credibility. Declare... Deflect... Proclaim unknowable mystery... AFTER trying to present a knowable formulation for God.
The double standards and absurd rhetoric know no end from Trinitarians. Good grief...
I look forward to your answer on my query above in red
It will be evaded and avoided.
Trinis are smoke-and-mirrors specialists. Deflect... Defer... Since Trinity is unbiblical, it's all they can do. Sad and pathetic, really.
E
endofallfears
Guest
I look forward to your answer on my query above in red
We know that Jesus speaks to the Holy Spirit because he says this:
12*“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13*However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14*He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15*All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. (John 16:12-15)
In other words, Jesus will speak to the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will convey those words to us.
We also see the Holy Spirit speaks to Christ.
26*Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Ro 8:26)
The Spirit speaks for us in our behalf to our Lord Jesus.
E
endofallfears
Guest
That's humorous and evasive. Trinity is nothing if not Greek. Scripture says God's Soul/The Father is well pleased in the Son. IOW... all rhetoric from you and no scripture. And... now scripture isn't inspired in its original language.
So you have no intention of attempting to support Trinity. I've seen this a thousand times. You join the ranks of all the rest who have no credibility. Declare... Deflect... Proclaim unknowable mystery... AFTER trying to present a knowable formulation for God.
The double standards and absurd rhetoric know no end from Trinitarians. Good grief...
Touched a nerve, have I? Figures. You're more interested in preserving your precious "Oneness" model instead of harmonizing Scripture.
So let's take a look at one example.
12*“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13*Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
(Isaiah 48:12-13)
12* “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13*I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
14*Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15*But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16*“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
(Rev 22:12-16)
God in the OT says "I am the First, I am the Last".
Jesus in the NT says "I am the first, I am the Last".
How exactly does a "Oneness" model harmonize these scriptures?
Touched a nerve, have I? Figures. You're more interested in preserving your precious "Oneness" model instead of harmonizing Scripture.
So let's take a look at one example.
12*“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13*Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
(Isaiah 48:12-13)
12* “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13*I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
14*Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15*But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16*“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
(Rev 22:12-16)
God in the OT says "I am the First, I am the Last".
Jesus in the NT says "I am the first, I am the Last".
How exactly does a "Oneness" model harmonize these scriptures?
No, you haven't "touched" a nerve; Trinity gets on my last one. I was a Trinitarian Pastor for 12 years after being raised and educated Trini. And I'm NOT ONENESS, for the hearing-impaired among us.
I notice you only toss out spoof-texting for others to "handle", but never provide answers as a thorough apologetic or exegesis for Trinity. Your response in the previous post about Jesus speaking to the HS is inference just like Trinity false-doctrine.
Your presumption that I'm Oneness has led you to post the spoof-texts challenge in this post, yet you never provide support that God is three "persons". I have no problem with the precious prophesies and other Scripture listed.
You have done nothing but prove my contention that Trinity is based solely on inference and speculation, and has no scriptural foundation beyond that. It is creedal, not scriptural. God is not three "persons", and the best you can provide is inference with no apologetic, along with a misunderstanding that I am Oneness.
Don't just do marginal spoof-texting; show an exegesis that God is three "persons". You can't, because it's extra-biblical. You're so self-assured and condescending, but can't provide the support beyond inference and presumption.
Trinity is error. Filioque is error upon error. I'll bet you're both.
E
endofallfears
Guest
No, you haven't "touched" a nerve; Trinity gets on my last one. I was a Trinitarian Pastor for 12 years after being raised and educated Trini. And I'm NOT ONENESS, for the hearing-impaired among us.
I notice you only toss out spoof-texting for others to "handle", but never provide answers as a thorough apologetic or exegesis for Trinity. Your response in the previous post about Jesus speaking to the HS is inference just like Trinity false-doctrine.
Your presumption that I'm Oneness has led you to post the spoof-texts challenge in this post, yet you never provide support that God is three "persons". I have no problem with the precious prophesies and other Scripture listed.
You have done nothing but prove my contention that Trinity is based solely on inference and speculation, and has no scriptural foundation beyond that. It is creedal, not scriptural. God is not three "persons", and the best you can provide is inference with no apologetic, along with a misunderstanding that I am Oneness.
Don't just do marginal spoof-texting; show an exegesis that God is three "persons". You can't, because it's extra-biblical. You're so self-assured and condescending, but can't provide the support beyond inference and presumption.
Trinity is error. Filioque is error upon error. I'll bet you're both.
Heh heh So your using the old "don't confuse me with the facts" strategy. You're wanting to comment on doctrine but not engage scripture to do so.
All poking and prodding aside, the fishermen who became the apostles knew the difference between 1 and 3. Paul the rabbi knew the difference between 1 and 3. Why then propagate a doctrine that defies human understanding and would drive back potential converts? Why would those later working out a systematic theology create a doctrine with the potentially (and historically actual) division?
The doctrine of the trinity developed as the answer to harmonizing the nature of God as described in Scripture. The verses I mentioned above, must be addressed and not set aside, along with many others. If we refuse to harmonize scripture within the confines of scripture, then we are forced to use outside models and constructs, or we become dogmatic extremists and not allow any questions at all.
The other problem is the how non-trinitarian doctrine affects other doctrines. Just as an example, if Jesus is not eternal as God, then how can a creature have the capacity to take upon himself the sins of the world, past, present, and future, or how can we be secure in our salvation if Jesus, as any other creature, has the possibility to become corrupt? Or if Jesus is merely an extension of one diety, then in creating a distinction between himself, the Father, and the Holy Spirit is a deception.
The reasoning of the trinity is simple. If God says "I am the First and the Last" in the OT, and Jesus says "I am the first and the Last" in the NT, and we believe all scripture is true, then we accept both statements as true. Therefore, since scripture says "God is one", we conclude God of the OT and Jesus of the NT are also one, and also separate at the same time. We may not understand it, but we must acknowledge it.
1
1Covenant
Guest
You are not Trinitarian but you are not oneness. What then do you believe?And I'm NOT ONENESS, for the hearing-impaired among us.
Side Note:
The language of the trinity is extra-biblical but it is based on the defense of the straightforward Biblical language of the three distinctive persons and only one God, over and against new theology that crept in since the ascension. One can look at all your first and second century work and see the church's comfortableness in the language that refers to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinctive in its present tense as God, though they had no formal theology as such. It is only as challenges to the norm arise that we see the doctrine become formalized in light of the emerging counter-theology.
In the end all the doctrines about the nature of God in this regard use doctrine (extra-biblical explanation) to defend themselves. The oneness have to devise a system of belief to explain away the distinctiveness of the father, son, and Holy spirit that is presented in the NT - a "oneness" that is not presented in each passage where the distinctiveness is referenced. For example, the conversations between the Father and the Son presents a challenge that must be explained outside of scripture since scripture doesn't stop and explain how both can be in a discussion together and still be one in the same.
The problem is no different for the trinitarian. However, in the end, the trinitarian is simply resolved to be comfortable with all that Bible says and with the language of the Bible's description of the distinctiveness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Therefore the trinitarian believes the Word when it says there is but one God and also believes the Word when it says that we need someone to intercede on our behalf between us and God. That the Spirit intercedes to help our prayers, while He (Christ) knows the mind of the Spirit and makes intercession for us according to the will of God. There is no difficulty to drive the trinitarian to explain away this distinction of "persons" in the one God in this verse - only celebration and acceptance.
Like in the early church, there is no need to do anything other than celebrate and accept the scripture's simple straightforward language until the Bible's language itself becomes challenged by someone who adds to the passages an explanation that is not there - in order to say that there is no distinction of "persons".
As another side note: As a further example of this type of simple belief system, there are those that believe that God is both fully sovereign and gives men complete free will, simply because the Bible says both. They would say it is not up to man to limit an incomprehensible God in how this is or is not possible, rather there is simply a choice to trust that it is so because He said it is.
Respectfully submitted
Heh heh So your using the old "don't confuse me with the facts" strategy. You're wanting to comment on doctrine but not engage scripture to do so.
All poking and prodding aside, the fishermen who became the apostles knew the difference between 1 and 3. Paul the rabbi knew the difference between 1 and 3. Why then propagate a doctrine that defies human understanding and would drive back potential converts? Why would those later working out a systematic theology create a doctrine with the potentially (and historically actual) division?
The doctrine of the trinity developed as the answer to harmonizing the nature of God as described in Scripture. The verses I mentioned above, must be addressed and not set aside, along with many others. If we refuse to harmonize scripture within the confines of scripture, then we are forced to use outside models and constructs, or we become dogmatic extremists and not allow any questions at all.
The other problem is the how non-trinitarian doctrine affects other doctrines. Just as an example, if Jesus is not eternal as God, then how can a creature have the capacity to take upon himself the sins of the world, past, present, and future, or how can we be secure in our salvation if Jesus, as any other creature, has the possibility to become corrupt? Or if Jesus is merely an extension of one diety, then in creating a distinction between himself, the Father, and the Holy Spirit is a deception.
The reasoning of the trinity is simple. If God says "I am the First and the Last" in the OT, and Jesus says "I am the first and the Last" in the NT, and we believe all scripture is true, then we accept both statements as true. Therefore, since scripture says "God is one", we conclude God of the OT and Jesus of the NT are also one, and also separate at the same time. We may not understand it, but we must acknowledge it.
I've dealt extensively with scripture in other threads, including my own that I referred you to. It is you and the Trinitarian hoarde that hasn't and can't support Trinity "persons" from scripture. Perhaps you should read my affirnations before you presume what you have in the above.
Trinity is a concept based on inference. It is unscriptural. You can't support it from the word, because it's not there.
You are not Trinitarian but you are not oneness. What then do you believe?
Side Note:
The language of the trinity is extra-biblical but it is based on the defense of the straightforward Biblical language of the three distinctive persons and only one God, over and against new theology that crept in since the ascension. One can look at all your first and second century work and see the church's comfortableness in the language that refers to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinctive in its present tense as God, though they had no formal theology as such. It is only as challenges to the norm arise that we see the doctrine become formalized in light of the emerging counter-theology.
In the end all the doctrines about the nature of God in this regard use doctrine (extra-biblical explanation) to defend themselves. The oneness have to devise a system of belief to explain away the distinctiveness of the father, son, and Holy spirit that is presented in the NT - a "oneness" that is not presented in each passage where the distinctiveness is referenced. For example, the conversations between the Father and the Son presents a challenge that must be explained outside of scripture since scripture doesn't stop and explain how both can be in a discussion together and still be one in the same.
The problem is no different for the trinitarian. However, in the end, the trinitarian is simply resolved to be comfortable with all that Bible says and with the language of the Bible's description of the distinctiveness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Therefore the trinitarian believes the Word when it says there is but one God and also believes the Word when it says that we need someone to intercede on our behalf between us and God. That the Spirit intercedes to help our prayers, while He (Christ) knows the mind of the Spirit and makes intercession for us according to the will of God. There is no difficulty to drive the trinitarian to explain away this distinction of "persons" in the one God in this verse - only celebration and acceptance.
Like in the early church, there is no need to do anything other than celebrate and accept the scripture's simple straightforward language until the Bible's language itself becomes challenged by someone who adds to the passages an explanation that is not there - in order to say that there is no distinction of "persons".
As another side note: As a further example of this type of simple belief system, there are those that believe that God is both fully sovereign and gives men complete free will, simply because the Bible says both. They would say it is not up to man to limit an incomprehensible God in how this is or is not possible, rather there is simply a choice to trust that it is so because He said it is.
Respectfully submitted
One of the more rational responses I've heard from a Trinitarian. At least you recognize the inference.
If you want to know my understanding of God's constitution and nature, please see the first few posts of my "Who is God... Really?!" thread.
S
Scotth1960
Guest
Hebrew and Greek are divinely inspired languages in the original Hebrew (which has been lost) and in the original Greek (which has not been lost and has been preserved in the Greek Orthodox Church), but they depend upon the context of the Greek Orthodox Church who alone (which alone) is the divine guardian and protector the the "faith once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3) and which alone knows what the Holy Scriptures of the OT and the NT means. The Church uses the Greek for the OT, (and, of course, Greek for the NT!), as the Hebrew OT is unreliable and has been corrupted by the unbelieving Jewish rabbis, who trust the Talmud more than they would trust the original Hebrew OT anyway. God save us. In Erie Scott HarringtonIt tickles me to no end when men say we cannot know what God looks like. He plainly said we are made in his Image, reflection, likeness, etc. Look in a mirror & you get the basics of what God looks like. We look basically like him. Most people are afraid to look into the eyes of the person who looks back at them in the mirror everyday. Look Deep you might discover something you never knew before!!
E
endofallfears
Guest
So, I went over to the other thread "Who is God...really" and picked this up.
I'll begin with the basics and build a framework for understanding the truth. There is substantial exegesis of Scripture beyond what I initially present, but I'm trying to keep it scaled down for simplicity and general understanding.
"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. ...And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -John 1:1-3,14
Logos and Rhema are inseparable, though distinct. They both comprise the spoken word, but are two parts of that spoken word. There can be no Logos without Rhema.
Rhema is the substance content that is the subject matter that is thought and spoken about. Logos is the reason, wisdom, and intelligent thought and expression of that subject matter. Rhema is the Divine Content of the Divine Expression; Logos is the Divine Expression of the Divine Content. Both the Rhema and Logos precede the utterance. To be spoken, the Rhema-Logos is borne forth from the internal depths of one's essence, containing the very substance of that essence in the external speaking forth from the internal. It is borne by the breath (pneuma: spirit).
Rhema-Logos is the total substance of the complete essence of God's Self, externalized from silence to expression by the breath of His Spirit. The internal Word became the external Son, eternally pre-existent to proceed*forth and come from God.
Logos is the intelligent thought and speaking forth of all that is contained in its counterpart, Rhema. Logos is the rational reason, wisdom, intelligence, and thought of God spoken forth in the word or discourse of His plan and arrangement to reveal Himself in and to His creation. It is his thorough contemplation of pondering, knowing, and expressing outwardly and externally from Himself. It is the Divine Expression.
That which is being reasoned, contemplated, pondered, and thought to be outwardly expressed is the Rhema. Rhema is the substance content of Himself... God OWN Self. Everything that God IS is within the Rhema portion of the spoken word. It is the subject matter of Divine Content. The Logos reasons and thinks to speak forth the entire substance of content that is God's OWN Self.
The Rhema-Logos precedes the act of the utterance. God silently planned and arranged within Himself everything that He was afterwards about to utter through His Word; while He was thus planning and arranging with His own wisdom and reason, He was actually causing the very substance of His own essence to become Word, borne forth by His breath after it was initiated by His will (thelema).
He thought and willed to speak forth the entirety of Hismelf upon His breath, which was the Word. His mind and will and emotion thought and chose and felt to utter the Word, uttering the internal Rhema by the Logos to become the external Son.
God's OWN Rhema-Logos spoke forth Himself as flesh. His OWN Self as flesh. Not AS a separate "person". Not THROUGH a separate "person". His OWN Self, that ultimately become the person (prosopon) of Jesus Christ.
The Infinite Uncreated God as Spirit uttered Himself forth to become flesh. Nothing had ever been external to God before He spoke. His speaking begat that which was internal to become external. As He spoke, all creation came into existence as the realm in which He would visibly and tangibly reveal His invisible intangible Self to mankind who were made in His image and likeness.
Jesus is literally God embodied in flesh. Jesus is NOT another "person", but the person (prosopon) of God.
(More coming. Next post imminent.)
In other words (and correct me if I'm wrong) Jesus existed as a thought in the mind of the One diety until he was spoken into existence and given substance. Because Jesus existed as an eternal thought and/or concept, he can be considered "pre-existant". Jesus does not enjoy co-existance as God, but is a physical manifestation of the One diety (kind of like a finger-puppet).
I'd like to see the scriptural support for all of this heh heh. Good luck with that.
I'll begin with the basics and build a framework for understanding the truth. There is substantial exegesis of Scripture beyond what I initially present, but I'm trying to keep it scaled down for simplicity and general understanding.
"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. ...And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -John 1:1-3,14
Logos and Rhema are inseparable, though distinct. They both comprise the spoken word, but are two parts of that spoken word. There can be no Logos without Rhema.
Rhema is the substance content that is the subject matter that is thought and spoken about. Logos is the reason, wisdom, and intelligent thought and expression of that subject matter. Rhema is the Divine Content of the Divine Expression; Logos is the Divine Expression of the Divine Content. Both the Rhema and Logos precede the utterance. To be spoken, the Rhema-Logos is borne forth from the internal depths of one's essence, containing the very substance of that essence in the external speaking forth from the internal. It is borne by the breath (pneuma: spirit).
Rhema-Logos is the total substance of the complete essence of God's Self, externalized from silence to expression by the breath of His Spirit. The internal Word became the external Son, eternally pre-existent to proceed*forth and come from God.
Logos is the intelligent thought and speaking forth of all that is contained in its counterpart, Rhema. Logos is the rational reason, wisdom, intelligence, and thought of God spoken forth in the word or discourse of His plan and arrangement to reveal Himself in and to His creation. It is his thorough contemplation of pondering, knowing, and expressing outwardly and externally from Himself. It is the Divine Expression.
That which is being reasoned, contemplated, pondered, and thought to be outwardly expressed is the Rhema. Rhema is the substance content of Himself... God OWN Self. Everything that God IS is within the Rhema portion of the spoken word. It is the subject matter of Divine Content. The Logos reasons and thinks to speak forth the entire substance of content that is God's OWN Self.
The Rhema-Logos precedes the act of the utterance. God silently planned and arranged within Himself everything that He was afterwards about to utter through His Word; while He was thus planning and arranging with His own wisdom and reason, He was actually causing the very substance of His own essence to become Word, borne forth by His breath after it was initiated by His will (thelema).
He thought and willed to speak forth the entirety of Hismelf upon His breath, which was the Word. His mind and will and emotion thought and chose and felt to utter the Word, uttering the internal Rhema by the Logos to become the external Son.
God's OWN Rhema-Logos spoke forth Himself as flesh. His OWN Self as flesh. Not AS a separate "person". Not THROUGH a separate "person". His OWN Self, that ultimately become the person (prosopon) of Jesus Christ.
The Infinite Uncreated God as Spirit uttered Himself forth to become flesh. Nothing had ever been external to God before He spoke. His speaking begat that which was internal to become external. As He spoke, all creation came into existence as the realm in which He would visibly and tangibly reveal His invisible intangible Self to mankind who were made in His image and likeness.
Jesus is literally God embodied in flesh. Jesus is NOT another "person", but the person (prosopon) of God.
(More coming. Next post imminent.)
In other words (and correct me if I'm wrong) Jesus existed as a thought in the mind of the One diety until he was spoken into existence and given substance. Because Jesus existed as an eternal thought and/or concept, he can be considered "pre-existant". Jesus does not enjoy co-existance as God, but is a physical manifestation of the One diety (kind of like a finger-puppet).
I'd like to see the scriptural support for all of this heh heh. Good luck with that.
T
torilove
Guest
This is so cool! Hey can you guys check out my blog and tell me what you think? It's a Love Thing I just started though so input would be nicee! It need work I know!
Heh heh So your using the old "don't confuse me with the facts" strategy. You're wanting to comment on doctrine but not engage scripture to do so.
All poking and prodding aside, the fishermen who became the apostles knew the difference between 1 and 3. Paul the rabbi knew the difference between 1 and 3. Why then propagate a doctrine that defies human understanding and would drive back potential converts? Why would those later working out a systematic theology create a doctrine with the potentially (and historically actual) division?
The doctrine of the trinity developed as the answer to harmonizing the nature of God as described in Scripture. The verses I mentioned above, must be addressed and not set aside, along with many others. If we refuse to harmonize scripture within the confines of scripture, then we are forced to use outside models and constructs, or we become dogmatic extremists and not allow any questions at all.
The other problem is the how non-trinitarian doctrine affects other doctrines. Just as an example, if Jesus is not eternal as God, then how can a creature have the capacity to take upon himself the sins of the world, past, present, and future, or how can we be secure in our salvation if Jesus, as any other creature, has the possibility to become corrupt? Or if Jesus is merely an extension of one diety, then in creating a distinction between himself, the Father, and the Holy Spirit is a deception.
The reasoning of the trinity is simple. If God says "I am the First and the Last" in the OT, and Jesus says "I am the first and the Last" in the NT, and we believe all scripture is true, then we accept both statements as true. Therefore, since scripture says "God is one", we conclude God of the OT and Jesus of the NT are also one, and also separate at the same time. We may not understand it, but we must acknowledge it.
You done well to show the Father & His Son but somehow left out the Holy Spirit in your equation. Seems like the Apostle Paul did the same thing in all his salutations. The Trinity was first established by the Greek Churches @ The Council of Nicea by direct command of Constantine, upon fear of DEATH. Not a very good foundation for a doctrine.
You are not Trinitarian but you are not oneness. What then do you believe?
Side Note:
The language of the trinity is extra-biblical but it is based on the defense of the straightforward Biblical language of the three distinctive persons and only one God, over and against new theology that crept in since the ascension. One can look at all your first and second century work and see the church's comfortableness in the language that refers to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinctive in its present tense as God, though they had no formal theology as such. It is only as challenges to the norm arise that we see the doctrine become formalized in light of the emerging counter-theology.
In the end all the doctrines about the nature of God in this regard use doctrine (extra-biblical explanation) to defend themselves. The oneness have to devise a system of belief to explain away the distinctiveness of the father, son, and Holy spirit that is presented in the NT - a "oneness" that is not presented in each passage where the distinctiveness is referenced. For example, the conversations between the Father and the Son presents a challenge that must be explained outside of scripture since scripture doesn't stop and explain how both can be in a discussion together and still be one in the same.
The problem is no different for the trinitarian. However, in the end, the trinitarian is simply resolved to be comfortable with all that Bible says and with the language of the Bible's description of the distinctiveness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Therefore the trinitarian believes the Word when it says there is but one God and also believes the Word when it says that we need someone to intercede on our behalf between us and God. That the Spirit intercedes to help our prayers, while He (Christ) knows the mind of the Spirit and makes intercession for us according to the will of God. There is no difficulty to drive the trinitarian to explain away this distinction of "persons" in the one God in this verse - only celebration and acceptance.
Like in the early church, there is no need to do anything other than celebrate and accept the scripture's simple straightforward language until the Bible's language itself becomes challenged by someone who adds to the passages an explanation that is not there - in order to say that there is no distinction of "persons".
As another side note: As a further example of this type of simple belief system, there are those that believe that God is both fully sovereign and gives men complete free will, simply because the Bible says both. They would say it is not up to man to limit an incomprehensible God in how this is or is not possible, rather there is simply a choice to trust that it is so because He said it is.
Respectfully submitted
If the Trinity is indeed scriptural. Why did the translators add the verse in 1 John 5:7. Verse seven was added by the translators of the 1611 KJV & was never in any of the original manuscripts. It only shows up in manuscripts newer than 1400 I believe, which are useless!!! May God have mercy on the men who added to his Holy Word!!!!
Hebrew and Greek are divinely inspired languages in the original Hebrew (which has been lost) and in the original Greek (which has not been lost and has been preserved in the Greek Orthodox Church), but they depend upon the context of the Greek Orthodox Church who alone (which alone) is the divine guardian and protector the the "faith once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3) and which alone knows what the Holy Scriptures of the OT and the NT means. The Church uses the Greek for the OT, (and, of course, Greek for the NT!), as the Hebrew OT is unreliable and has been corrupted by the unbelieving Jewish rabbis, who trust the Talmud more than they would trust the original Hebrew OT anyway. God save us. In Erie Scott Harrington
Ahhh so by your own words you believe the Old Testament, which is the foundation of God's word to be corrupt. I'm beginning to see more deeply into your problem.
So, I went over to the other thread "Who is God...really" and picked this up.
I'll begin with the basics and build a framework for understanding the truth. There is substantial exegesis of Scripture beyond what I initially present, but I'm trying to keep it scaled down for simplicity and general understanding.
"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. ...And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -John 1:1-3,14
Logos and Rhema are inseparable, though distinct. They both comprise the spoken word, but are two parts of that spoken word. There can be no Logos without Rhema.
Rhema is the substance content that is the subject matter that is thought and spoken about. Logos is the reason, wisdom, and intelligent thought and expression of that subject matter. Rhema is the Divine Content of the Divine Expression; Logos is the Divine Expression of the Divine Content. Both the Rhema and Logos precede the utterance. To be spoken, the Rhema-Logos is borne forth from the internal depths of one's essence, containing the very substance of that essence in the external speaking forth from the internal. It is borne by the breath (pneuma: spirit).
Rhema-Logos is the total substance of the complete essence of God's Self, externalized from silence to expression by the breath of His Spirit. The internal Word became the external Son, eternally pre-existent to proceed*forth and come from God.
Logos is the intelligent thought and speaking forth of all that is contained in its counterpart, Rhema. Logos is the rational reason, wisdom, intelligence, and thought of God spoken forth in the word or discourse of His plan and arrangement to reveal Himself in and to His creation. It is his thorough contemplation of pondering, knowing, and expressing outwardly and externally from Himself. It is the Divine Expression.
That which is being reasoned, contemplated, pondered, and thought to be outwardly expressed is the Rhema. Rhema is the substance content of Himself... God OWN Self. Everything that God IS is within the Rhema portion of the spoken word. It is the subject matter of Divine Content. The Logos reasons and thinks to speak forth the entire substance of content that is God's OWN Self.
The Rhema-Logos precedes the act of the utterance. God silently planned and arranged within Himself everything that He was afterwards about to utter through His Word; while He was thus planning and arranging with His own wisdom and reason, He was actually causing the very substance of His own essence to become Word, borne forth by His breath after it was initiated by His will (thelema).
He thought and willed to speak forth the entirety of Hismelf upon His breath, which was the Word. His mind and will and emotion thought and chose and felt to utter the Word, uttering the internal Rhema by the Logos to become the external Son.
God's OWN Rhema-Logos spoke forth Himself as flesh. His OWN Self as flesh. Not AS a separate "person". Not THROUGH a separate "person". His OWN Self, that ultimately become the person (prosopon) of Jesus Christ.
The Infinite Uncreated God as Spirit uttered Himself forth to become flesh. Nothing had ever been external to God before He spoke. His speaking begat that which was internal to become external. As He spoke, all creation came into existence as the realm in which He would visibly and tangibly reveal His invisible intangible Self to mankind who were made in His image and likeness.
Jesus is literally God embodied in flesh. Jesus is NOT another "person", but the person (prosopon) of God.
(More coming. Next post imminent.)
In other words (and correct me if I'm wrong) Jesus existed as a thought in the mind of the One diety until he was spoken into existence and given substance. Because Jesus existed as an eternal thought and/or concept, he can be considered "pre-existant". Jesus does not enjoy co-existance as God, but is a physical manifestation of the One diety (kind of like a finger-puppet).
I'd like to see the scriptural support for all of this heh heh. Good luck with that.
No. You don't even begin to understand. It's because you caricature everything through your filter of default Trinity indoctrination. You present no thorough apologetic or exegesis that the Logos was pre-existent as a separate person. You haven't a clue about Greek language or history. You have no understanding of Rhema or Logos. You don't realize the Logos proceeded*forth (exerchomai) and came (heko) from (ek) God; or that the Holy Spirit proceedeth (ekporeuomai) from (para) the Father.
You will cling to that default tradition and indoctrination like all other Trinis have for 1.7 millinnia. You'll conceptualize and criticize; but you'll never present exegesis, because three "persons" isn't in Scripture. That never matters to Trinis, because they prefer hyper-eisegesis by inference.
It would be great to see your attempt to show the meaning of Rhema and Logos, but it won't happen. When a man speaks (logos), does that word speak forth a different person? Is that word spoken AS a different person or THROUGH a different person? No... it's one's OWN word spoken BY and OF one's OWN self. THAT's logos.
I've studied language and Godhead history specifically for 13 years. The early fathers that formulated your doctrine just didn't understand the real meaning of the Rhema to the Logos. They were too busy "thinking" according to Neo-Platonic and Hellenistic influences, etc.
The three are one, but not three "persons"; they are three constituent parts of one Divinity. The Word SAYS God's Soul/The Father is well pleased in the Son. The Word SAYS the Spirit of God. The Word SAYS in Christ dwelleth the fullness (pleroma) of the Godhead (Theotes) bodily.
The Word NOWHERE says God is "three persons". It's inference and projection furthered by default indoctrination of blind assent. It's creedal, not scriptural. But the ignorant mindless hoarde will believe it to the end, ignoring any honest unbiased look at Scripture.
You're now accountable for what you've heard.
No. You don't even begin to understand. It's because you caricature everything through your filter of default Trinity indoctrination. You present no thorough apologetic or exegesis that the Logos was pre-existent as a separate person. You haven't a clue about Greek language or history. You have no understanding of Rhema or Logos. You don't realize the Logos proceeded*forth (exerchomai) and came (heko) from (ek) God; or that the Holy Spirit proceedeth (ekporeuomai) from (para) the Father.
You will cling to that default tradition and indoctrination like all other Trinis have for 1.7 millinnia. You'll conceptualize and criticize; but you'll never present exegesis, because three "persons" isn't in Scripture. That never matters to Trinis, because they prefer hyper-eisegesis by inference.
It would be great to see your attempt to show the meaning of Rhema and Logos, but it won't happen. When a man speaks (logos), does that word speak forth a different person? Is that word spoken AS a different person or THROUGH a different person? No... it's one's OWN word spoken BY and OF one's OWN self. THAT's logos.
I've studied language and Godhead history specifically for 13 years. The early fathers that formulated your doctrine just didn't understand the real meaning of the Rhema to the Logos. They were too busy "thinking" according to Neo-Platonic and Hellenistic influences, etc.
The three are one, but not three "persons"; they are three constituent parts of one Divinity. The Word SAYS God's Soul/The Father is well pleased in the Son. The Word SAYS the Spirit of God. The Word SAYS in Christ dwelleth the fullness (pleroma) of the Godhead (Theotes) bodily.
The Word NOWHERE says God is "three persons". It's inference and projection furthered by default indoctrination of blind assent. It's creedal, not scriptural. But the ignorant mindless hoarde will believe it to the end, ignoring any honest unbiased look at Scripture.
You're now accountable for what you've heard.
PPS
Can I ask you
Jesus prayed
Father if you are willing, take this cup from me, yet not my will but yours be done
Luke 22:42
What is your understanding of this verse in relation to your belief of Father, son and HS
PPS
Can I ask you
Jesus prayed
Father if you are willing, take this cup from me, yet not my will but yours be done
Luke 22:42
What is your understanding of this verse in relation to your belief of Father, son and HS
When God spoke the substance (hupostasis) of Himself as the Rhema-Logos Word, that spoken substance proceeded*forth and came (John 8:42) as the fullness of the Godhead bodily. The "proceeded*forth" and the "came" are two different events according to Greek syntax; the former at the speaking, the latter at the Incarnation.
Jesus became the prosopon (personal face-to-face appearance - 2Cor. 2:10) of God, the express*image of his substance (Heb. 3:1). That embodiment was a literal man with a rational soul and a spirit. That soul and spirit was propagated directly by God to have no inherent death from sin.
The soul is emergently derived from spirit-body joining (Gen. 2:7). That spirit comes from God (Eccl. 12:7). The life (soul - Lev. 17:11) is in the blood.
It was the will of Jesus' rational soul that was the subject of His prayer. The spoken-forth substance of God in His Word became flesh like you and I. During conception/implantation, the blood comes from the Father. The soul-life is in the blood, generated by spirit-body joining.
God literally spoke Himself into flesh as the Son. The Son prayed from the temporal to the eternal. Ultimately, Jesus was filled with God's Spirit (Holy Spirit) and inherited all that is the Father's (God's Soul). Jesus is the embodiment of God's Soul and Spirit so that we will forever have His face to look upon. As the Body of Christ, we are made one with Him as He was made one with the Father. All things reconciled to Himself. We, by extension and inclusion, become His Body. Partakers of the Divine nature.