Apostasy 101

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
How is that not falling away from faith?
How do you walk away from the continuing power of Christ if not by no longer believing and trusting in that power?
Its pretty easy.

You believe you need Christ PLUS your requirements. As soon as you start working at your requirements you have walked away from the continuing power of Christ.


The Galatians were truly saved. Paul said so. Yet they did not recognize the error of their way. And Paul made it a point to instruct them.
If we recognize the error of their way why would you assume that the Truly Saved Galatians wouldn't recognize it as well?

Why would Paul instruct them if they weren't going to recognize their error and turn back to Christ?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
No they aren't. You don't have to warn a True Believer in Christ to not stop believing.

You only have to warn a person who only has an intellectual belief in Christ to not stop believing.
Lol that's just silly what you wrote..... cant stop laughing. Have a look at the contradiction in the last statement you just made.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
I'm the one that needs to start recognizing the clear distinction?

Haven't I been describing the clear distinction to you and others for awhile now?
No.
You keep addressing the 'knowing' part of the gospel, not the 'trusting' part of the gospel.

You do not get saved by knowing about Christ. You get saved by trusting in Christ.
Generally speaking, I agree that you can not suddenly not know various facts about the gospel that you have learned, but you can most certainly stop trusting in what you know about the gospel. You aren't making this distinction.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Nothing really wrong with what you are saying.

UNTIL you make it a requirement that YOU must do in order to be saved and stay saved. Then you make it into a Work instead of a Gift.
Time to show me the scripture that says trusting in Christ is a meritorious work of self righteousness.
Don't put it off any longer.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
If we recognize the error of their way why would you assume that the Truly Saved Galatians wouldn't recognize it as well?

Why would Paul instruct them if they weren't going to recognize their error and turn back to Christ?
He doesn't know if they're going to acknowledge the error of their way and come back to justification in Christ. How do we know this? By this...

11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 4:11

Why would Paul say this if it's as you say that they will without question or doubt come back to Christ because all saved people will? In your doctrine there is no such thing as wasted effort on saved people.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
Time to show me the scripture that says trusting in Christ is a meritorious work of self righteousness.
Don't put it off any longer.
Trusting in Christ, Christ in us the hope of Glory.
Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? That is, to bring Christ (the word,the commandments) down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word,the commandments) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

(Rom 10:6-8; Heb 10:15-16 )
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Trusting in Christ, Christ in us the hope of Glory.
Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? That is, to bring Christ (the word,the commandments) down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word,the commandments) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

(Rom 10:6-8; Heb 10:15-16 )
Are you saying this shows us that if we have to continue to trust in Christ to remain saved that would be a meritorious work of self righteousness?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
Lol that's just silly what you wrote..... cant stop laughing. Have a look at the contradiction in the last statement you just made.
There's no contradiction. Except maybe in your understanding.

It wouldn't be the first time your comprehension skills were lacking.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
No.
You keep addressing the 'knowing' part of the gospel, not the 'trusting' part of the gospel.

You do not get saved by knowing about Christ. You get saved by trusting in Christ.
Generally speaking, I agree that you can not suddenly not know various facts about the gospel that you have learned, but you can most certainly stop trusting in what you know about the gospel. You aren't making this distinction.
A person CAN'T stop trusting in what they KNOW.

They can only stop trusting in something that they theorize about. And change their theory.


If a person knows they were saved by Christ they can't just stop trusting in that Salvation. They already KNOW it to be True.

If a person THINKS that maybe someday they might be saved by trusting in the gospel they can later change their mind about this and decide maybe they won't be. This is an intellectual belief and NOT Salvation.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
He doesn't know if they're going to acknowledge the error of their way and come back to justification in Christ. How do we know this? By this...

11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 4:11

Why would Paul say this if it's as you say that they will without question or doubt come back to Christ because all saved people will? In your doctrine there is no such thing as wasted effort on saved people.
He does know they're going to acknowledge the error of their way.

Galatians 4:11 is Paul saying "I hope I have not wasted my efforts on you". NOT "I have wasted my efforts on you".

Even though some of these Galatians are tremendously stubborn and without Knowledge of Christ Paul knows that God must have a plan for them because he is teaching them what True Christianity is. Paul wouldn't be there teaching if God didn't want him to.

=> At least some of them are Truly Saved Christians.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
You don't have to warn a True Believer in Christ to not stop believing.

You only have to warn a person who only has an intellectual belief in Christ to not stop believing.
Why?
So they can continue in their intellectual belief in Christ?
Obviously, the warnings to keep believing have to be to true believers, not fake believers with just intellectual belief. Why would God warn fake believers to continue their fake believing?
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
A person CAN'T stop trusting in what they KNOW.

They can only stop trusting in something that they theorize about. And change their theory.


If a person knows they were saved by Christ they can't just stop trusting in that Salvation. They already KNOW it to be True.

If a person THINKS that maybe someday they might be saved by trusting in the gospel they can later change their mind about this and decide maybe they won't be. This is an intellectual belief and NOT Salvation.
Here's where the church is told to not turn away from God, and to not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin:

12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. - Hebrews 3:12-13

Now you show me where it says "If a person knows they were saved by Christ they can't just stop trusting in that Salvation. They already KNOW it to be True."
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
He does know they're going to acknowledge the error of their way.
Then why does he say, "11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain." (Galatians 4:11)?

According to you, there is no such thing as laboring in vain over the genuinely saved person because they will always respond.
Obviously, Paul did not agree with that, or else he would not have expressed concern about him wasting his labor on them.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
If a person THINKS that maybe someday they might be saved by trusting in the gospel they can later change their mind about this and decide maybe they won't be. This is an intellectual belief and NOT Salvation.
There are no such persons, you either hear the gospel and believe it or not, you can not hear the gospel and think that someday you might trust it and be saved. When news reach you, you either believe them or not.
Believing and trusting is doing(works) rather than thoughts:

James 1:22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
No they aren't. You don't have to warn a True Believer in Christ to not stop believing.

You only have to warn a person who only has an intellectual belief in Christ to not stop believing.
If you have an intellectual belief in something you know for a certain that it is. There is no changing that. Israel out of Egypt and through the desert physically seen God working miracles, They believed in God. They seen the cloud by day and the fiery pillar by night every day. And the manna every 6th day to mention a few. The had an intellectual belief. Yet time and time again they showed forth fruits that they did not trust Him. They had no faith.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
Hebrews 3
18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

John 14
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Romans 10
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

LORD
Word: kurioj
Pronounce: koo'-ree-os
Strongs Number: G2962
Orig: from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):-- God, Lord, master, Sir.
Use: TDNT-3:1039,486 Noun Masculine
Heb Strong: H113 H136 H136 H410 H430 H433 H1167 H1376 H3068 H4756 H4911 H6697 H7706 H7980 H7989
  1. 1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
    1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
    1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
    1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
    1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
    1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
Amen! Some of my favorite Passages. Let's look at the context.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word) down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word) again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: THAT IS, the word of faith, which we preach;

What is the word of Faith in which Paul had been preaching through his letter to those whom where in Rome?

Christ in the heart. Which means the word is in the heart TOO. Perfected!!!!

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof (TO WHICH) the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws (the word) into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
(Heb 10:14-16)

That if thou shalt (So that thou) confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Which brings us back to chapter six.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin....reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom 10:6-9; 6:3-7,10 KJV)
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
Trusting in Christ, Christ in us the hope of Glory.
Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? That is, to bring Christ (the word,the commandments) down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word,the commandments) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

(Rom 10:6-8; Heb 10:15-16 )
Are you saying this shows us that if we have to continue to trust in Christ to remain saved that would be a meritorious work of self righteousness?
Sorry for the confusion, you must have thought that I was answering your question or disagreeing with the premise of your stance. I was not. I am with you.
You emphatically stated
Time to show me the scripture that says trusting in Christ is a meritorious work of self righteousness.
Don't put it off any longer.
What I was attempting to do was give the cause as to why, how we can even to trust in Christ, God in the first place. If you wish reread the post with that intent.

I love Galatians. Since it seems to be the apex of the opposition let's spend some time there shall we.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed INTO Jesus Christ, that we might be justified THROUGH the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified OUT OF Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, THAT I MIGHT LIVE UNTO God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live IN the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. ..... Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; .......for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise out of faith of Jesus Christ might be given to the ones believing. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us INTO Christ, that we might be justified OUT OF faith. But after that faith (Christ's) is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God THROUGH THE FAITH IN (not through faith in but throught the faith in) Christ Jesus. FOR (because) as many of you as have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Gal 2:16-3:29)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
Here's where the church is told to not turn away from God, and to not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin:

12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. - Hebrews 3:12-13

Now you show me where it says "If a person knows they were saved by Christ they can't just stop trusting in that Salvation. They already KNOW it to be True."
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
Then why does he say, "11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain." (Galatians 4:11)?

According to you, there is no such thing as laboring in vain over the genuinely saved person because they will always respond.
Obviously, Paul did not agree with that, or else he would not have expressed concern about him wasting his labor on them.
And yet he still goes ahead and labours over them because he knows they will respond.

The Truly Saved ones.

The ones who only have a hypothesis of what Christianity might be, those are the ones that he has "perhaps" labored over in vain.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
There are no such persons, you either hear the gospel and believe it or not, you can not hear the gospel and think that someday you might trust it and be saved. When news reach you, you either believe them or not.
Believing and trusting is doing(works) rather than thoughts:

James 1:22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves.
Aren't you one of the ones that doesn't believe a person is Saved until they die?

I thought it was you.

Maybe its Wall. I get you legalists mixed up sometimes.