Should someone who is saved pray for the salvation of someone who is not saved?

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John146

Senior Member
#61
Jan 13, 2016
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#61
Chris1975 said:
Of course faith has evidence (a changed life, obedience, good works). No issue with that. But he wasn't justified at the later date. He was justified when he believed. Otherwise Abraham could not be in relationship with God. Justification is through the shedding of blood (Atonement), and accessed by faith. This is peace with God. Unless Abraham was already justified, he could not have the continuing faith to carry on with the potential sacrifice of his son Isaac. His follow through is also justification because it shows his faith is real.
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That’s not what Scripture says concerning Abraham. He was justified when he offered up Isaac in chapter 22.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

We are justified by the faith of Christ. His works of obedience was demonstrated by His life and death.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#62
Apr 27, 2017
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#62
John146 said:
That’s not what Scripture says concerning Abraham. He was justified when he offered up Isaac in chapter 22.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
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Genesis 15
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

The James 2v21 is not initial justification. James 2v21 is continued justification (evidenced by faith in action)
 
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John146

Senior Member
#63
Jan 13, 2016
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#63
Chris1975 said:
The James 2v21 is not initial justification. James 2v21 is continued justification (evidenced by faith in action)
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You’re dancing around the clear reading of scripture. Abraham was justified by works. Period. That’s what the scripture says.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#64
Apr 27, 2017
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#64
John146 said:
You’re dancing around the clear reading of scripture. Abraham was justified by works. Period. That’s what the scripture says.
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No dancing. All three of these statements of scripture are true in my assertion. For yours its only the last one. Who is right? Me :)

Romans 3 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. (true for me, not for you)
Romans 5v1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (true 4 me, not 4 you)
James 2v21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (true for me, true for you)

Because you don't understand that James 2v21 is actually supported by James 2v24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

What does v24 mean? See the word "ONLY". Only means Faith is INCLUDED ORIGINALLY and original cause. Faith comes before works but Godly works is not possible without faith. So faith is the first cause of justification.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#65
Jan 13, 2016
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#65
Chris1975 said:
No dancing. All three of these statements of scripture are true in my assertion. For yours its only the last one. Who is right? Me :)

Romans 3 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. (true for me, not for you)
Romans 5v1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (true 4 me, not 4 you)
James 2v21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (true for me, true for you)

Because you don't understand that James 2v21 is actually supported by James 2v24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

What does v24 mean? See the word "ONLY". Only means Faith is INCLUDED ORIGINALLY and original cause. Faith comes before works but Godly works is not possible without faith. So faith is the first cause of justification.
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What? I believe I am justified by the faith of Christ. His work on the cross justifies the believer. No works on our part necessary to be justified or to prove our justification.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#66
Apr 27, 2017
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#66
John146 said:
What? I believe I am justified by the faith of Christ. His work on the cross justifies the believer. No works on our part necessary to be justified or to prove our justification.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
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Great, so when was Abraham justified by faith?
 
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John146

Senior Member
#67
Jan 13, 2016
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#67
Chris1975 said:
Great, so when was Abraham justified by faith?
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When he offered up Isaac as Scripture states.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#68
May 24, 2014
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#68
LeeLoving said:
Those who are saved are predestined to be saved, right? If so, does that mean someone who is saved should not pray for the salvation of someone who is not saved?
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Very astute observation. This exposes the error and evil of Calvinism very well. Prayers for the salvation of the lost are the most important prayers of all. Thank you for bringing this out into the open. God bless you.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#69
May 24, 2014
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#69
LeeLoving said:
What is "predestination" based upon? The will of God the Father?
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Two things immediately come to mind...
1. God is omniscient (all knowing) and dwell outside and above time itself.
2. His Church, His Bride, is Elect and predestined for Heaven. Just come to Jesus and don't jump out of the boat.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#70
Apr 27, 2017
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#70
John146 said:
When he offered up Isaac as Scripture states.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
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And what Isaac did you offer up (John146) to obtain your justification? Are you currently justified? What did you do?
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#71
Apr 27, 2017
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#71
John146 said:
When he offered up Isaac as Scripture states.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
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Your post 65 and 67 contradict one another.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#72
Jan 13, 2016
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#72
Chris1975 said:
And what Isaac did you offer up (John146) to obtain your justification? Are you currently justified? What did you do?
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In the Church age, one is justified the moment he trusts the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#74
Apr 27, 2017
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#74
John146 said:
In the Church age, one is justified the moment he trusts the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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This passage refutes your answer (you are saying that Abraham is justified by works but we today are justified by faith)
Romans 4
For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#76
Jan 13, 2016
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#76
Chris1975 said:
This passage refutes your answer (you are saying that Abraham is justified by works but we today are justified by faith)
Romans 4
For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
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Notice when Abraham was made righteous (not justified) he was a Gentile. In chapter 17, he was circumcised. His justification came by works as he was circumcised.

Abraham is a duel type. For us, he is a type who is made righteous upon believing. But what we have is not identical to Abraham. We are justified at the moment of belief by the faith of Jesus Christ. Abraham was justified by his own faith. The faith of Christ was not even available at that time.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#77
May 24, 2014
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#77
Deuteronomy said:
We cannot know who the elect are until they've come to saving faith, so we witness and preach the Gospel to everyone. ~Calvinism
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Matthew 22
22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

We can ascertain from the context that all were called. Those who came are referred to as the elect, chosen, and predestined. Let no man entertain the notion that Jesus did not shed His blood that all might come to a saving knowledge and experience of salvation.
 
B

bojack

Well-known member
#78
Dec 16, 2019
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#78
Perhaps God is waiting on a number instead of a particular day or hour . We are given signs of the times and prophecy to look for ..
That would favor free will and assurance God's will be done .. Remember Judah's first 2 sons died and the youngest refused to marry Tamara so God fulfilled prophecy through Judah himself that the Messiah come through Judah ..

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
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