Can One’s Salvation Be Given Up?

[Judges1318]

So do you believe that if you don’t forgive others, God won’t forgive you?

In the end, after refusing all correction about the matter, yes, I will lose the forgiveness of God.

Your lack of forgiveness signifies that you yourself are not relying on the forgiveness of God, or at the very least have forgotten the great debt you yourself have been forgiven in Christ:

9But whoever does not have them (qualities of the Spirit) is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. - 2 Peter 1:9

Your love, or lack of it, shows the extent to which you yourself remember and embrace God's love in you. The love of God in you that you are cognizant of determines the extent to which you will love. People who cast that love from their heart in unbelief will most certainly, in the end, lose it.

 

[Judges1318]

you cannot tell that you are ignoring the literal English words with that interpretation of yours?

Show me the literal words that command me to pick up serpents.

 

[Guojing]

Show me the literal words that command me to pick up serpents.

I already said it’s not a command. Shall is not a command

 

[Guojing]

In the end, after refusing all correction about the matter, yes, I will lose the forgiveness of God.

Your lack of forgiveness signifies that you yourself are not relying on the forgiveness of God, or at the very least have forgotten the great debt you yourself have been forgiven in Christ:

9But whoever does not have them (qualities of the Spirit) is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. - 2 Peter 1:9

Your love, or lack of it, shows the extent to which you yourself remember and embrace God's love in you. The love of God in you that you are cognizant of determines the extent to which you will love. People who cast that love from their heart in unbelief will most certainly, in the end, lose it.

So you believe you can lose your forgiveness from God because of that.

By implication you can lose your salvation too?

 

[John146]

Let's put it this way. Scripture doesn't contradict so if it had been taught around the whole world then Jesus was lying. The end of time hasn't came which is another reason why God is patiently waiting for the full number to be saved. The world in scripture is used atleast 4 different ways. Globe, regional, known world as in only the places you knew existed, or world in a spiritual sense. In fact Rome was often considered the center of the world. All roads led to Rome as they would say. This is why some people debate was the great flood a global, regional or as far as Noah could see flood by defining the word world. We must also remember just as Paul was a man so was Noah. His world as far as he knew was under water as far as he could see.

So I do believe Paul saw the Gospel being spread around his known world. But they also truly believed Christ was returning soon as evident in their writings that is more proof they was speaking from their perspective and current knowledge.

You deny the scriptures. Paul clearly states that the gospel he preached has gone out to all the world. What you cannot see is that the gospel of the kingdom is not the message that Paul preached. The gospel of the kingdom has not been preached to all the world yet. Only to the Jews in the days of Jesus.

World is used in the same context in both scriptures. This is just an attempt to explain away the clear reading of the word.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

So do you believe that if you don’t forgive others, God won’t forgive you?

Nope that is the law of Moses. Jesus taught from the OT as he delivered his message. As explained before Jesus often brought up the laws to shed light on mans imperfections and even hypocrisy. Always causing others to see their need for the Messiah. May not be directed at me but it speaks to me.

If I was to live in a unforgiving state, that contradicts the Gospel itself. A action that comes from a living faith. So if I didn't forgive others I doubt my faith would be a living faith. Just like if I didn't see a gradual increase in the fruit of the Spirit, I would be worried for someone's faith growing stagnant or even falling away.

 

[Guojing]

Nope that is the law of Moses. Jesus taught from the OT as he delivered his message. As explained before Jesus often brought up the laws to shed light on mans imperfections and even hypocrisy. Always causing others to see their need for the Messiah. May not be directed at me but it speaks to me.

If I was to live in a unforgiving state, that contradicts the Gospel itself. A action that comes from a living faith. So if I didn't forgive others I doubt my faith would be a living faith. Just like if I didn't see a gradual increase in the fruit of the Spirit, I would be worried for someone's faith growing stagnant or even falling away.

Okay at least you agree that that particular teaching by Jesus in the gospel no longer applies to us now

So when you ask me about the lord prayer, then v12 is similarly inapplicable to us today

For the record I believe it’s wise to forgive others. When you do, the main beneficiary is actually yourself

 

[Roughsoul1991]

You deny the scriptures. Paul clearly states that the gospel he preached has gone out to all the world. What you cannot see is that the gospel of the kingdom is not the message that Paul preached. The gospel of the kingdom has not been preached to all the world yet. Only to the Jews in the days of Jesus.

World is used in the same context in both scriptures. This is just an attempt to explain away the clear reading of the word.

You will have to provide evidence that the Kingdom Gospel is different Gospel. I see no evidence of that. How do you view the eyewitness accounts? You seem to put Paul on a pedestal above Jesus. Jesus's kingdom isnt of this world, same idea in the letters.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Okay at least you agree that that particular teaching by Jesus in the gospel no longer applies to us now

So when you ask me about the lord prayer, then v12 is similarly inapplicable to us today

For the record I believe it’s wise to forgive others. When you do, the main beneficiary is actually yourself

But why do you forgive others? Is it because Jesus spoke about forgiving others? Especially told Then Peter came to Him and said, ‘Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?’ Jesus said to him, ‘I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.’” Matthew 18:21-22.
Do you adopt it because it was obviously important to Jesus?

 

[John146]

You will have to provide evidence that the Kingdom Gospel is different Gospel. I see no evidence of that. How do you view the eyewitness accounts? You seem to put Paul on a pedestal above Jesus. Jesus's kingdom isnt of this world, same idea in the letters.

Jesus used Paul to present the gospel of grace and how to live in that grace in a fallen world.

I’ve given many scriptures that the gospel of the kingdom that was preached by Jesus and His disciples to the Jews only before the cross, was not the same message given to Paul.

Please compare Matthew 24:14 with Colossians 1:6, 23 and Romans 16:15-16.

 

[Judges1318]

So you believe you can lose your forgiveness from God because of that.

By implication you can lose your salvation too?

Since salvation is the forgiveness of your sins, then 'yes', you can lose your salvation.

 

[Judges1318]

I already said it’s not a command. Shall is not a command

Then it's a big nothing burger.
You're making something out of nothing.

 

[Guojing]

Since salvation is the forgiveness of your sins, then 'yes', you can lose your salvation.

Nice, so in a very strange way, we are back to the question asked in the OP

 

[Guojing]

Then it's a big nothing burger.
You're making something out of nothing.

No, I am not. I am saying that Mark 16:17-18 promised that the Jews who believe have some special sign gifts, if they drink deadly poison, pick up a serpent they will not be harmed. Likewise, if they lay hands on the sick, the sick SHALL recover.

None of us Christians now can claim these promises. Simply because those were meant for the gospel that they are preaching, which is the gospel of the Kingdom.

 

[Judges1318]

you cannot tell that you are ignoring the literal English words with that interpretation of yours?

Do you know what it means to imply something?
The obvious implication of 'picking up a serpent' is that it will bite you. And the context refers to that.

 

[Guojing]

But why do you forgive others? Is it because Jesus spoke about forgiving others? Especially told Then Peter came to Him and said, ‘Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?’ Jesus said to him, ‘I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.’” Matthew 18:21-22.
Do you adopt it because it was obviously important to Jesus?

I already said, I forgive others because I know if I were to hold any grudges or what not, I am harming myself.

I don't need Jesus to tell me to forgive others, or perhaps you can say, he gave me the wisdom to understand why it is actually in my self interest to forgive others.

 

[Guojing]

Do you know what it means to imply something?
The obvious implication of 'picking up a serpent' is that it will bite you. And the context refers to that.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

The context gives us a lot of shalls. Your interpretation makes little sense, given how the other "shalls" are similarly understood in the English.

 

[Judges1318]

No, I am not. I am saying that Mark 16:17-18 promised that the Jews who believe have some special sign gifts, if they drink deadly poison, pick up a serpent they will not be harmed. Likewise, if they lay hands on the sick, the sick SHALL recover.

We have those promises too.

None of us Christians now can claim these promises. Simply because those were meant for the gospel that they are preaching, which is the gospel of the Kingdom.

Have someone lay their hands on you for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and believe what the Bible teaches about miracles and you will see these promises are for us today.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Jesus used Paul to present the gospel of grace and how to live in that grace in a fallen world.

I’ve given many scriptures that the gospel of the kingdom that was preached by Jesus and His disciples to the Jews only before the cross, was not the same message given to Paul.

Please compare Matthew 24:14 with Colossians 1:6, 23 and Romans 16:15-16.

Good let's also compare.
Matthew 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

End times is a future event. Whole world is a unbound universal gospel that is fit for the whole world. Obviously the world grows and so does populations. Nations spread out. But the Gospel continues to fulfill the promise that it is reaching in every generation the known world.

But that is theology with different theological opinions. Back to the same Gospel not 2.

Romans 14:17
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

1 Corinthians 4:20
20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.

Acts 19:8
Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.”

Acts 28:23
23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Same Gospel.

Hebrews 12:28-29 New International Version (NIV)
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”

No other Gospel but Jesus Christ as admitted by Paul.

Galatians 1:6-7 New International Version (NIV)
No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Christ brought in the New Testament. The good news had arrived. John 3:16 Christ died for all. Whoever would believe shall be saved. Not very legalistic sounding?

John 6:28–29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John must of missed the legalistic part. Again same Gospel.

 

[Guojing]

We have those promises too.


Have someone lay their hands on you for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and believe what the Bible teaches about miracles and you will see these promises are for us today.

When it comes to sign gifts, it does not matter how much faith the recipient have, you know? How many times have various so-called "faith healers" try to use the lack of faith on the recipient part when the healing inevitably falls short of 100% for example.

Don't get me wrong, God still heals today, but healing is no longer a sign gift.

And as for snake handlers, there are well known "cult groups" who continue to teach their followers to "show that they truly believe by handling poisonous snakes, which is really irresponsible and not rightly dividing the word of truth.

https://sojo.net/articles/what-drives-people-snake-handling-churches