Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[Chris1975]

[EDIT to ADD to my last post]

^ IOW, Jesus in His Olivet Discourse (incl'g Matt24), is NOT covering the Subject of "our Rapture" AT ALL;
but instead is covering the Subject of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (and the specific, limited [future] time period that leads UP TO *THAT* [except for about 11-12 verses in Lk21:12-24a about the events of 70ad])

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Very much is a rapture. But this is primarily for Israel remnant (2nd rapture).

 

[Dave-L]

1 Thess 1:10
New King James Version
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Mt 24:40
New King James Versioh
0Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
As is the great flood, Sodom and Gomorra and other scenarios, God does not pour His wrath out on His children. Yes, there will be martyrs and the persecuted who will be rewarded in Heaven, but as for God's wrath TO COME, it's for the sinful, not His kids.
Also, if you'd like see this classis debate on the Rapture @https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRkWEb_V_Q&t=4s
Oh yeah, I stand by this

Where is a verse that mentions a pre trib rapture? There aren't any. The rapture happens on the last day after the resurrection. That's your only option.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Where is a verse that mentions a pre trib rapture? There aren't any. The rapture happens on the last day after the resurrection. That's your only option.

There's another mis-defined phrase ("IN/AT the last day"), this is not speaking of "a singular 24-hr day," but more along the lines of the "7th Millennium" (aka "IN the THIRD DAY" [since His ascension] per Hosea 5:15-6:3--speaking of a LONG TIME-PERIOD, not "a 24-hr day" )

 

[Dave-L]

There's another mis-defined phrase ("IN/AT the last day"), this is not speaking of "a singular 24-hr day," but more along the lines of the "7th Millennium" (aka "IN the THIRD DAY" [since His ascension] per Hosea 5:15-6:3--speaking of a LONG TIME-PERIOD)

OKAAAaaaaay. So we just make scripture say what we need for it to say?

 

[Dave-L]

Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

How might he do that?

 

[KhedetOrthos]

Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

1. That message is specifically addressed to the Bishop of Philadelphia “7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:”
2. You realize there is more than one way to keep you from the hour of trial, and most of them don’t include this secret rapture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Very much is a rapture. But this is primarily for Israel remnant (2nd rapture).

I believe that is indeed a "gathering" (by angels He shall SEND to do so), of the elect of Israel "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM" (per the related passage of Isa27:12-13, at the "GREAT trumpet")... but that this is not a "SNATCH"/"CAUGHT UP" [/'harpazo' event]; so...

I believe "our Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Correct. Jesus comes back once, visibly, to everyone as described in Matthew 24 and Revelation 19. […]

NVM [re: your word "Correct"], I believe I found my answer (which I asked specifically about the viewpoint being put forth by Ben Witherington III in the videos in Post #10 [a video which I think was posted at You Tube in Oct of 2014]). I see he has not seen any of the "debunking" of the idea that Margaret MacDonald was presenting PRE-trib ideas from her supposed "visions"... what is your take on that??



[again, Jesus is INDEED only "coming back" (to the earth) at the Matt24/Rev19 time-slot; NEITHER of which passages are covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" ]

 

[KhedetOrthos]

OKAAAaaaaay. So we just make scripture say what we need for it to say?

...unfortunately a lot of what goes on under the banner of Christianity today from “God wants you to be rich and healthy” to “we’re not going to have to go through the tribulation” gains a willing audience from people who brush over that “take up your cross and follow me” business.

1,000,000 Armenian Christians martyred at the hands of the Turks in the 20th century alone but somehow we’re special and aren’t going to have to deal with that unpleasantness.

 

[Chris1975]

I believe that is indeed a "gathering" (by angels He shall SEND to do so), of the elect of Israel "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM" (per the related passage of Isa27:12-13, at the "GREAT trumpet")... but that this is not a "SNATCH"/"CAUGHT UP" [/'harpazo' event]; so...

I believe "our Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods)

There are two raptures.
Matthew 24 talks about the 2nd Rapture (for Israel). We see further evidence in this same chapter: v39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming.

 

[KhedetOrthos]

There are two raptures.
Matthew 24 talks about the 2nd Rapture (for Israel).

There can’t be two raptures. There have to be either three or seven because biblical numerology.

 

[TabinRivCA]

First, there's a passage in Matthew 24:38-41:
For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Jer 30:7
Alas, what a terrible time of trouble it is! There has never been any like it. It is a time of trouble for the descendants of Jacob, but some of them will be rescued out of it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There are two raptures.
Matthew 24 talks about the 2nd Rapture (for Israel). We see further evidence in this same chapter: v39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming.

In each of the "one shall be taken, the other left" passages, the one "taken" is "taken away in judgment" (just as in Noah's day), and the one "left" is "left to remain upon the earth" to "FILL the earth" (reproduce/bear children; just like in Noah's day... and I've provided in past posts the parallels between Dan2:35 and Gen9:1 ["[actively] FILL/FILLED the [whole] earth"], with these like in Matt24:37-41 and Lk17:26-37).

The "gathering together [verb]" in Matt24:29-31 is not a "harpazo" ('catching up/away' or snatch [/Rapture]); they will be "gathered ONE BY ONE" (per the Isa27:12-13 parallel passage on this); whereas *we* (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) will be "caught up AS ONE"

 

[Chris1975]

There can’t be two raptures. There have to be either three or seven because biblical numerology.

Maybe there are three (third on after the millennial reign and the Dragon released )

 

[TabinRivCA]

2 Thess 2:3- Supporting the idea that the Holy Spirit within the church is the restrainer is the fact that the restrainer is referenced both as a thing (neuter gender, verse 6) and as a person (masculine gender, verse 7). Also, the power delaying Satan’s masterplan to unveil his false messiah must be of God. It makes much more sense to say that the Holy Spirit is curbing the devil than a political entity or even an angel. The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining.
Ergo, The Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ, must be removed before the 'one who is lawless' can be revealed. Hopefully Christians would recognize and debunk such a character coming with great deceitfulness and craftiness, IF they were still on earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Thess 2:3- Supporting the idea that the Holy Spirit within the church is the restrainer is the fact that the restrainer is referenced both as a thing (neuter gender, verse 6) and as a person (masculine gender, verse 7). Also, the power delaying Satan’s masterplan to unveil his false messiah must be of God. It makes much more sense to say that the Holy Spirit is curbing the devil than a political entity or even an angel. The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining.
Ergo, The Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ, must be removed before the 'one who is lawless' can be revealed.

Agreed.

And I've pointed out the parallel wording, between [in both] 2Th2:7b-8a and that of Lam2:3-4.





[quoting old post]

The wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a is very similar to that of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in the context of "WRATH" words and "judgments" on Israel),

--where it [2Th2:7-8a] says, "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..." ; and [that of]

--Lam2:3-4 says (in very similar language), "...he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [effectively saying (to their enemies) 'HAVE AT IT!'/'go ahead, sic 'em!'], and he burned against Jacob like like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."

[end quoting]

 

[Whispered]

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says the same:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

Top dog? No, not by a long shot.
Dr. John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary interpreted what Jesus did on the cross as the work of the Antichrist

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[another post I made some time back]

[quoting that post]


Acts 3:21 [speaking to "ye men of Israel," v.12 (unsaved persons as noted in v.13-15,17,19)] then states: "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [(the OT prophecies) in contrast to that which He had theretofore kept "hidden in God"/was as yet undisclosed]

In vv.13 and 26 the phrase "His Servant Jesus" (they had not been expecting the "suffering servant" aspects of His Person, only the "reigning-in-power King" aspects, though both aspects had been prophesied in the OT; Chpt 3's point is Peter telling them they'd overlooked the former of these two aspects ['His Suffering Servant'], and thus had a hand [themselves] in fulfilling that very thing, vv.13-15), but this was not saying that "everything" was at this point in time (the time of Acts 3) fully fulfilled; and...

...there are TWO "raise" senses spoken of in Acts 3... v.15 speaking of His being "raised from the dead," but the other being "raised" to a position of prominence BEFORE His death (that is, to the position of 'a Prophet like unto Moses'...'raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me [Moses]; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you' and 'UNTO YOU FIRST God, having raised up [to a position of prominence BEFORE His death] His Servant Jesus, SENT him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities'). The "ALL things which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets" (meaning, OT prophecies) have not yet been fully fulfilled, but remain for a yet-future time (and I believe Joel is one such prophecy).

[note: the word "King" is only used (re: Jesus) TWO times in all of the epistles, and both of them are "future" (see Rev19:15b still speaking in "future tense"), 1Tim6:15 being one of those, says, "which IN HIS TIMES He SHALL SHEW [openly manifest], who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (<--this latter phrase found only elsewhere in Rev19 and in the reverse order in Rev17) ]

[end quoting that post]

____________

the "amill-teachings," for example, say that Peter in Acts 3 (by his saying "spoke of these days") meant His "throne IN HEAVEN *NOW*" idea, but Peter is referring to His "Suffering Servant" aspect in that phrase (the part they had overlooked/missed, and thus FULFILLED that very thing, themselves [i.e. those who were "against Christ" at the time... but Peter calls them to "repent" re: what they had wrongly thought of Jesus' identity , in their not believing He was their Messiah])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ and (to go along with that post), knowing what viewpoint Walvoord held, I SERIOUSLY *doubt* he thought "THE Anti-christ" was present back in the first century (if that is what you are suggesting he meant in any of his writings/statements).