Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?
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We have free will and our faith is in that....He did all the payment...but we have to put our faith in Him....the people...97% of the current population by research is not born again and does not want to believe in Jesus and go to Him...to repent which is also a choice and a requirement...people are free willed and God wants all to repent...but most don't...the road is narrow and difficult and few fund it....and the few just are not all that strong and great that's why they don't
Make others very good or at all....the church is lukewarm...thats why we are arguing over whether the Devil is a fallen angel and limited atonement etc...
Make others very good or at all....the church is lukewarm...thats why we are arguing over whether the Devil is a fallen angel and limited atonement etc...
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You are so impressed with your view that you cannot understand what I am putting on the table. I will explain...
No man seek God, no not one, therefore God has to call and draw man unto himself like he did Abraham. Man respond to the call as did Abraham. Now that man is save he gives God the glory, honor, praises and thanksgiving for saving his soul. In other words, God quickens the man spirit and man respond.
You are concluding that because man chose to serve God after God called him therefore man found God and that is not what my statement insinuated. Not to mention, if I recall and correct me if it is not your view, but you believe that if one enters eternal damnation it is because God did not choose him. Right?
You are so impressed with your view that you cannot understand what I am putting on the table. I will explain...
No man seek God, no not one, therefore God has to call and draw man unto himself like he did Abraham. Man respond to the call as did Abraham. Now that man is save he gives God the glory, honor, praises and thanksgiving for saving his soul. In other words, God quickens the man spirit and man respond.
You are concluding that because man chose to serve God after God called him therefore man found God and that is not what my statement insinuated. Not to mention, if I recall and correct me if it is not your view, but you believe that if one enters eternal damnation it is because God did not choose him. Right?
Ah ok. So you believe that election is just Gods foreknowledge of the person’s own “free will” choice?
How does a person, enslaved to sin and a hard heart, generate faith and repentance using this enslaved heart of stone?
That’s the essence of the problem.
The solution? God gives the person a heart of flesh which can exercise faith and repentance. They are spiritually resurrected from spiritual death through the resurrecting power of the Holy Spirit.
Read Ephesians 2:1-10. Read John 3 along with Ezekiel 36:26-27. And don’t give me the dispensational nonsense that regeneration is only for the Jews
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It is a solid truth, that no one will be able to understand the mystery of the word, by their own entelect, and the only way that anyone will be able to understand the truth of Jesus's doctrine, are those to whom the Holy Spirit, within them, reveals those truths to.
I was stubborn enough, at 50 years old, with my pride, to think that I was smart enough to understand the scriptures, and make them harmonize, and I tried, with that mindset, for 12 years to figure it out, with no success. After 12 years, of diligent study, I admitted that I just was not smart enough to do it. That is when the Holy Spirit, within me, began to reveal, a little here, and a little there.
I realized, then, that if he had revealed truths to me, while I was in that "mindset" that I would have taken credit for my own entilect and not given God the credit.
Jesus says that if you want to be his disciple, you have to "deny yourself" (your entilect) and take up your cross, and follow him. Believing that mankind must accept an invitation to be saved eternally, before God can save him eternally, is not denying themselves, and therefore, the Holy Spirit will not reveal the full doctrine of Jesus Christ.
God's children, who have not "denied themselves" are new born babes in Christ, without the full knowledge of the doctrine of Christ, and are in need of spiritual food to grow thereby. That is why Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to the "lost sheep"(babes in Christ) 0f the house of Israel.
Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.
Most of God's children are still babes in Christ, and are going about to establish their own righteousness, by accepting an invitation to eternal live, which was never offered as an invitation. Even if eternal deliverance had of been "an invitation", the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, cannot accept the things of the Spirit, because they are foolishness unto him.
Some of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" are referred to in Romans 10:1- Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved (delivered, not eternally, but here in time). For I bear them record that they have "a zeal of God"(indication that they are his sheep), but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness (as babes in Christ), and are going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves (denied themselves) unto the righteousness of God.
I was stubborn enough, at 50 years old, with my pride, to think that I was smart enough to understand the scriptures, and make them harmonize, and I tried, with that mindset, for 12 years to figure it out, with no success. After 12 years, of diligent study, I admitted that I just was not smart enough to do it. That is when the Holy Spirit, within me, began to reveal, a little here, and a little there.
I realized, then, that if he had revealed truths to me, while I was in that "mindset" that I would have taken credit for my own entilect and not given God the credit.
Jesus says that if you want to be his disciple, you have to "deny yourself" (your entilect) and take up your cross, and follow him. Believing that mankind must accept an invitation to be saved eternally, before God can save him eternally, is not denying themselves, and therefore, the Holy Spirit will not reveal the full doctrine of Jesus Christ.
God's children, who have not "denied themselves" are new born babes in Christ, without the full knowledge of the doctrine of Christ, and are in need of spiritual food to grow thereby. That is why Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to the "lost sheep"(babes in Christ) 0f the house of Israel.
Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.
Most of God's children are still babes in Christ, and are going about to establish their own righteousness, by accepting an invitation to eternal live, which was never offered as an invitation. Even if eternal deliverance had of been "an invitation", the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, cannot accept the things of the Spirit, because they are foolishness unto him.
Some of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" are referred to in Romans 10:1- Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved (delivered, not eternally, but here in time). For I bear them record that they have "a zeal of God"(indication that they are his sheep), but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness (as babes in Christ), and are going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves (denied themselves) unto the righteousness of God.
Well I am giving God the credit...im an ax...and not the Lord....and God uses me....i was kept up all night once and given the future and wrote it down..it was a weeks travel future...in Africa God asked me to speak Hurricane 3 times and one formed miles wide around my wife and I while she was holding the paper with the future in her had....i have had other days like that...many many now in 25 years....i did not teach myself...i said the HS did it...he took me in quiet rooms for many many hours and revealed Scripture as to a child....but I could hold down 16 hours a day for 6 months decades ago as a babe in the Lord like Paul....people have worked for me and said I'm a guinus but really I'm a simple man or child that has a big heart and I listened for so long and gave all....i just have what Paul had with the whole complete Word...and the whole Word is known now...so I want to say God does not control us...we have free will...but he does have what does DO and is not just knowing ahead...He explains it....all may not be understandable...but he is understandable on a large level by knowing His whole Word
I do think, that I understand what you are putting on the table, but I do not think that you are understanding what I am putting on the table, such as, John 17:2, or you would not be asking who Jesus gives eternal life to, and who he does not give eternal life to.
Yes, God did choose an elect people, and they are the ones that he draws, calls, and regenerates to a spiritual life. God gave mankind the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, and all of mankind choose not to seek God. God, then, choose an elect people out of "those that choose not to seek him" and regenerated them to a spiritual life, so that, those he regenerated, would seek him.
Yes, God "did not choose", as his elect, all of mankind, but only choose a portion of all mankind out of those that would not seek him. I do not understand why God did not choose all of mankind, as his elect, because God's ways are higher than my ways. I have many question to God, as to why he does and does not do things, but he chooses not to reveal the answers ro me.
God regenerates everyone that he regenerates in the same manner, whether they are newly born babies, people in the Old testament, or people today, and that is by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 63"11, Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock (sheep=God's children)? Where is he that "put his Holy Spirit WITHIN him? All of the Old testament saints responded to the call, because they had been born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the same as do those that respond to his call today.
Yes, God did choose an elect people, and they are the ones that he draws, calls, and regenerates to a spiritual life. God gave mankind the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, and all of mankind choose not to seek God. God, then, choose an elect people out of "those that choose not to seek him" and regenerated them to a spiritual life, so that, those he regenerated, would seek him.
Yes, God "did not choose", as his elect, all of mankind, but only choose a portion of all mankind out of those that would not seek him. I do not understand why God did not choose all of mankind, as his elect, because God's ways are higher than my ways. I have many question to God, as to why he does and does not do things, but he chooses not to reveal the answers ro me.
God regenerates everyone that he regenerates in the same manner, whether they are newly born babies, people in the Old testament, or people today, and that is by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 63"11, Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock (sheep=God's children)? Where is he that "put his Holy Spirit WITHIN him? All of the Old testament saints responded to the call, because they had been born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the same as do those that respond to his call today.
I am not disputing that you are a righteous man, and honor and praise God, and if we could be absolutely sure who the elect are, that you would be one of them, and heaven will be your home. I, also, am not disputing that God uses righteous men and women for his purposes, and that God does still perform mericials in this day and time, as I have experienced a few myself.
I do think that some, well intended, babes in Christ, restricts God's power, due to a lack of knowledge of the full gospel of Jesus Christ, by taking credit, by their actions, for their eternal deliverance. If you can match the Apostle Paul's abilities, and still consider yourself as the chiefest of sinners, I commend you.
I do think that some, well intended, babes in Christ, restricts God's power, due to a lack of knowledge of the full gospel of Jesus Christ, by taking credit, by their actions, for their eternal deliverance. If you can match the Apostle Paul's abilities, and still consider yourself as the chiefest of sinners, I commend you.
And, you have been given perfect knowledge of this Word, so we should trust you, rather than read the word of God ourselves?
Sounds like charismatic stuff.
By the way, I don't claim God "controls" us in the sense of a puppeteer controlling a puppet. I believe in compatibilism.
At the same time, I know that unsaved men are under the power of Satan and sin, and are not free. Additionally, they have a fallen, dead nature that cannot respond to God until He makes them alive.
That's the real issue. Free-willers deny that mankind is enslaved by Satan and their own fallen nature. They have a "free will" but it is within the parameters of their own fallen nature, which means they are enslaved to their sin. They need to be freed, and that is why Jesus says that whom the Son sets free, he is free indeed. LOL.
But this doesn't fit within the narrative of free-willers who believe in decisional regeneration, and traditionalists/religionists will not yield on that point because their simplified view of God would fall apart.
I suggest that you read
I am wondering if you are claiming that you were in the midst of a hurricane, with no protection? I'm not sure what you are claiming in regards to the hurricane..perhaps I misunderstand.
Sounds like charismatic stuff.
By the way, I don't claim God "controls" us in the sense of a puppeteer controlling a puppet. I believe in compatibilism.
At the same time, I know that unsaved men are under the power of Satan and sin, and are not free. Additionally, they have a fallen, dead nature that cannot respond to God until He makes them alive.
That's the real issue. Free-willers deny that mankind is enslaved by Satan and their own fallen nature. They have a "free will" but it is within the parameters of their own fallen nature, which means they are enslaved to their sin. They need to be freed, and that is why Jesus says that whom the Son sets free, he is free indeed. LOL.
But this doesn't fit within the narrative of free-willers who believe in decisional regeneration, and traditionalists/religionists will not yield on that point because their simplified view of God would fall apart.
I suggest that you read
I am wondering if you are claiming that you were in the midst of a hurricane, with no protection? I'm not sure what you are claiming in regards to the hurricane..perhaps I misunderstand.
I WISH I SINNED LESS THAN PAUL IN MANY WAYS...BUT I DID NOT DO WHAT HE DID...I STRUGGLE DIFFERENTLY...BUT I TAKE IN VERY FIFFICULT PEOPLE...and I get hurt often doing it...drug addicts..wicken and white supremists etc...some times 12 at a time...i go deep into central America alone where children are not doing so good and help them....i walk thru it each time...God is with me...but I have my life with Him and that was based on going further than Paul did...i serve homeless in my house...i drop in with my money and feed 1000s in slums...and buy Bibles and give money to VOM and Gospel for Asia etc...for hundreds of pastors till I was broke...i tried all my mind and heart could do...and I won...i have God so strong He just is here all the time...and I'm happy with it with 20 lbs of possessions or less...i just rent and use what's around...i cook and clean up after people and love them...and I go without...God gave all...so can we...if the end is near we can do it...im not rugged like Paul...im not tough...i just love...and the devil comes after me and makes me pay....im living just like the NT...and it's got Charismatic to it with right doctrine that comes from non charismatic...but i reach all places for I belong to no one church...but just teach the Bible exactly...and people have laid hands on me and confirmed it now...and I like that God talks where I can hear Him to do things and they happen...i like just reading...and to read 10 or 15 books of the Bible a day for me is not so hard...i read to the people I help and they like it...no.program..just the Word in context...one book at a time...it is true and Holy Amen...we don't need AA and celebrate recovery...Gods Word is complete and enough for all...i don't Add anything to it or take from it...Amen
I used to do jail ministry..the head chaplain is a charismatic. He prophesied over some guy and told me over and over that he was going to become a great preacher. The prisoner started correcting me on my messages, in fact. Supposedly he converted whole blocks of prisoners (yet I saw them coming back again even the short time I was there). Seems like he lost his faith when he didn't escape a prison sentence, though. Now, the charismatic chaplain thinks he's lost his salvation. Funny how that works..funny how prophets claim some guy is going to be a great preacher and then gives up on him once he shows he isn't a real believer. And, his multiple converts showed no more fruit.
Why can't prophets predict things like that?
Why couldn't William Branham predict that Jim Jones was going to cause mass suicides in Guyana, yet endorsed him and his ministry?
It's because charismatics in general are boastful and full of baloney. Branham is called one of God's Generals by many charismatics. It's just plainly laughable.
I would just as soon believe a witch doctor or fortune teller as a charismatic. I simply don't trust them, period.
Why can't prophets predict things like that?
Why couldn't William Branham predict that Jim Jones was going to cause mass suicides in Guyana, yet endorsed him and his ministry?
It's because charismatics in general are boastful and full of baloney.
Branham is called one of God's Generals by many charismatics. It's just plainly laughable.I would just as soon believe a witch doctor or fortune teller as a charismatic. I simply don't trust them, period.
I used to do jail ministry..the head chaplain is a charismatic. He prophesied over some guy and told me over and over that he was going to become a great preacher. The prisoner started correcting me on my messages, in fact. Supposedly he converted whole blocks of prisoners (yet I saw them coming back again even the short time I was there). Seems like he lost his faith when he didn't escape a prison sentence, though. Now, the charismatic chaplain thinks he's lost his salvation. Funny how that works..funny how prophets claim some guy is going to be a great preacher and then gives up on him once he shows he isn't a real believer. And, his multiple converts showed no more fruit.
Why can't prophets predict things like that?
Why couldn't William Branham predict that Jim Jones was going to cause mass suicides in Guyana, yet endorsed him and his ministry?
It's because charismatics in general are boastful and full of baloney. Branham is called one of God's Generals by many charismatics. It's just plainly laughable.
I would just as soon believe a witch doctor or fortune teller as a charismatic. I simply don't trust them, period.
Why can't prophets predict things like that?
Why couldn't William Branham predict that Jim Jones was going to cause mass suicides in Guyana, yet endorsed him and his ministry?
It's because charismatics in general are boastful and full of baloney.
Branham is called one of God's Generals by many charismatics. It's just plainly laughable.I would just as soon believe a witch doctor or fortune teller as a charismatic. I simply don't trust them, period.
I agree that P/C doctrine is not so good...but when you got cancer for example it's good to have people who believe in miricales...God has sent me across P/C areas and then other end like MacArthur...neither is NT...both have truth and error...limited atonement is just total error 1 John is clear...Jesus died for not our sins only but of the whole world...thats it...conversation over...
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Scripture says Christ died for the sheep. Besides that, the idea of universal redemption takes away from the effectiveness of the atonement, because it claims there are people who are/will be under eternal punishment that the atonement applied to.
I do not believe this. My position is that Jesus' atonement actually saved the elect; it did not make salvation possible; it actually accomplished the salvation of the elect.
I do not believe this. My position is that Jesus' atonement actually saved the elect; it did not make salvation possible; it actually accomplished the salvation of the elect.
When did the spelling change from tulpe to tulip? Calvin is dead. Where did the idea come from if not Calvin ? A critic?
1570s, via Dutch or German tulpe, French tulipe "a tulip" (16c.), all ultimately from Turkish tülbent "turban," also "gauze, muslin," from Persian dulband "turban;" so called from the fancied resemblance of the flower to a turban.
1570s, via Dutch or German tulpe, French tulipe "a tulip" (16c.), all ultimately from Turkish tülbent "turban," also "gauze, muslin," from Persian dulband "turban;" so called from the fancied resemblance of the flower to a turban.
The problem is that I simply don't believe charismatics, period, when they start claiming this and that happened. It's ridiculous to claim miracles on an online forum. We don't know if someone is a delusional, pot smoking, mentally ill person or what.
I have met at least one person from christianchat and realized that his credibility was sorely lacking. He used foul language in my presence. I don't know if he is a Christian or not..it could be..but I wouldn't give him much credibility. To hear his wife talk, though, you would think he was qualified to be a pastor, and he definitely was not. He is a Pentecostal/charismatic who claimed he spoke in tongues at one time or another.
But, then again, there's another person I met from here who was solid, and I respect him. He made some claims regarding supernatural occurrences surrounding his conversion, and I believe them. However, his claims made sense, and he is Reformed and educated. Therefore, i had a good idea that his thinking is well structured, and I trusted his claims.
For someone to claim something here, though..all I've got to say is internet claims are cheap.
I have met at least one person from christianchat and realized that his credibility was sorely lacking. He used foul language in my presence. I don't know if he is a Christian or not..it could be..but I wouldn't give him much credibility. To hear his wife talk, though, you would think he was qualified to be a pastor, and he definitely was not. He is a Pentecostal/charismatic who claimed he spoke in tongues at one time or another.
But, then again, there's another person I met from here who was solid, and I respect him. He made some claims regarding supernatural occurrences surrounding his conversion, and I believe them. However, his claims made sense, and he is Reformed and educated. Therefore, i had a good idea that his thinking is well structured, and I trusted his claims.
For someone to claim something here, though..all I've got to say is internet claims are cheap.
You rarely make sense..this is another one of those times
By the way, TULIP is merely a memory device. There are better phrases that summarize the differences between the two.
TULIP was a response to the Remonstrants ; the followers of Arminius. They had five points that they were in disagreement with Reformed theology.
T - total depravity - radical corruption would be better - all of man's being is radically corrupted in the Fall
U - unconditional election - unconditional grace
L - limited atonement - actual atonement would be better
I - irresistible grace - effectual calling would be better
P - perseverance of the saints - preservation of the Holy Spirit
What it all boils down to - God is sovereign over all things, including salvation, and he accomplishes his purposes. He is not some old man wringing his hands in the corner, wondering if the person is going to respond, but he actually changes the rebel's nature so that they do respond.
Free-willer theology portrays God as some weak, anemic god who cannot accomplish his purposes. He tries to save all, but can't save all...in fact he can only save a few.
By the way, TULIP is merely a memory device. There are better phrases that summarize the differences between the two.
TULIP was a response to the Remonstrants ; the followers of Arminius. They had five points that they were in disagreement with Reformed theology.
T - total depravity - radical corruption would be better - all of man's being is radically corrupted in the Fall
U - unconditional election - unconditional grace
L - limited atonement - actual atonement would be better
I - irresistible grace - effectual calling would be better
P - perseverance of the saints - preservation of the Holy Spirit
What it all boils down to - God is sovereign over all things, including salvation, and he accomplishes his purposes. He is not some old man wringing his hands in the corner, wondering if the person is going to respond, but he actually changes the rebel's nature so that they do respond.
Free-willer theology portrays God as some weak, anemic god who cannot accomplish his purposes. He tries to save all, but can't save all...in fact he can only save a few.
That would make sense. The lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, the six days God did work. He rested on the 7th. Christ is our sabbath rest. We rest with him when we mix faith in what we do hear or see. Being yoked together with Emmanuel who works in us, with us, to both will and perform his good pleasure .Just as mankind was first created to do. Again before they did, when they did the will of another, violating the letter of the law designed to kill through corruption . "Thou shall have no other gods before me"
Mankind fell. The glory departed
Mankind fell. The glory departed