Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

[ForestGreenCook]

Read this carefully and don't just assume that you understand what it is being said, tell God to let you truly understand what is being said...

Even though Yeshua is declaring his deity in John 17, he is talking to his Father as a man to God the Father, but knowing that his Father is the Omniscient God and in God's omniscient the Father knows the number of people that will be saved among men, but he spoke as a man which is why he said as many.

Just like when Yeshua said, but of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but he Father, now the Yeshua sits at the right hand of the Father with the majesty and holiness and with the transcendent glory of God.

By God, the Father's foreknowledge, he saw that no one would be saved from going to hell, Psalms 53:2-3, unless He intervened, and choose, Eph 1, some of those that would not seek him, to regenerate them to a new spiritual life, that he would have a people that would seek and serve him.

The scriptures are kind of like a puzzle. If you see a piece that has the right colors, and has the right amount of ears, in the right places, you force one of the tight fitting ears into a place that it does not supposed to go, then you will not be able to see the finished picture. I believe you may be pressing an ear too hard, with your thumb.

God is three in one. Jesus being the second one. The only thing that the scriptures tells us that Jesus does not know, is the day and the hour that the heaven and the earth shall pass away, Mark 13:31-32.

 

[StrugglingTilMyReward]

I just started attending a Reformed Church in the summer of 2018, and it has been an unbelievable blessing. I read this article in the Church's magazine, you might enjoy it:

https://www.thebanner.org/columns/2019/10/pulling-up-tulips

I think the OP hits the nail squarely on the head in recognizing that the doctrine summarized by the acronym TULIP, that it helps one in this ME ME ME centered world to realize one's proper place in God's creation. The Creator defines His creation, not t'other way round.

Blessings.

 

[John146]

By God, the Father's foreknowledge, he saw that no one would be saved from going to hell, Psalms 53:2-3, unless He intervened, and choose, Eph 1, some of those that would not seek him, to regenerate them to a new spiritual life, that he would have a people that would seek and serve him.

The scriptures are kind of like a puzzle. If you see a piece that has the right colors, and has the right amount of ears, in the right places, you force one of the tight fitting ears into a place that it does not supposed to go, then you will not be able to see the finished picture. I believe you may be pressing an ear too hard, with your thumb.

God is three in one. Jesus being the second one. The only thing that the scriptures tells us that Jesus does not know, is the day and the hour that the heaven and the earth shall pass away, Mark 13:31-32.

Why would Jesus tell the Jews in Matthew 6, "seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you."

Is Jesus asking them to do something that they can't do?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

As per your private interpretation...

If you disagree, then do it with scripture. What is your interpretation of Psalms 53:2-3? And Eph 1:4?

Jesus is definitely praying for his twelve disciples in John 17. This is not a reference to some "elect" group.

Interpretations should come with scripture references, yours do not.

Why would Jesus tell the Jews in Matthew 6, "seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you."

Is Jesus asking them to do something that they can't do?

The inspired scriptures were not written to the natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit, but they are written to God's regenerated children that has the ability to understand the things of the Spirit.

These Jews in matthew are regenerated children of God, evidenced by the fact that they were praying to a spiritual God. They were giving alms. They were fasting. These acts that they were doing, that you would not see the natural man do. All of the newly regenerated are but babes in Christ, and do not have the full knowledge of the gospel. They start out as newborn babes depending upon the milk of the word to grow thereby. Most never grow strong enough in the word to digest the meat of the word.

"The kingdom of God" is one of the names that is used in the scriptures to designate Christ's church. There are several more names that the church is called by, such as; The church of God, The church of Christ, The new Jerusalem, The church of the first born, The church in the wilderness, The remnant, The few, Zion, plus a few more.

According to the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14, he would never seek Christ's spiritual church.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Your view is distorted because you interpret the Scriptues to fit your view. Psalms 53:1,2, that does not conclude that now man seek God. Read verse 3, everyone one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is not that doeth good, no, not one. David is talking about something that took place. You are pulling these verses out of context to fit yor distorted view.

2nd Chronicles 15: 2, the Spirit of God said, if ye seek the LORD, he will be found.

I guess you did not carefully read what I posted. Yeshua spoke as a man when he stated that he did not know time and hour when God will come, but he is in his full glory and being in his full glory he knows, unless to you he is not omniscient. Question, is Yeshua omniscient?

As previously stated you pulling verses out of context to fit your view, but yur view os not according to the Scriptures.

The Scripture is not like a puzzle, man creates a puzzle, puzzling the mind of many with a distorted view.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Your view is distorted because you interpret the Scriptures to fit your view. Psalms 53:1,2, you are pulling out of context. Read verse 3, everyone one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. David is talking about something that took place. You are pulling these verses out of context to fit a doctrine that you were impressed with.

2nd Chronicles 15: 2, the Spirit of God said, if ye seek the LORD, he will be found.

I guess you did not carefully read what I posted. Yeshua spoke as a man when he stated that he did not know the time and hour when God will come, but he is in his full glory and being in his full glory he knows, unless to you he is not omniscient. Question, is Yeshua omniscient?

As previously stated you are pulling verses out of context to fit your view, but your view is not according to the Scriptures.

The Scripture is not like a puzzle, man creates a puzzle, puzzling the mind of many with a distorted view.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Your view is distorted because you interpret the Scriptures to fit your view. Psalms 53:1,2, you are pulling out of context. Read verse 3, everyone one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. David is talking about something that took place. You are pulling these verses out of context to fit a doctrine that you were impressed with.

2nd Chronicles 15: 2, the Spirit of God said, if ye seek the LORD, he will be found.

I guess you did not carefully read what I posted. Yeshua spoke as a man when he stated that he did not know the time and hour when God will come, but he is in his full glory and being in his full glory he knows, unless to you he is not omniscient. Question, is Yeshua omniscient?

As previously stated you are pulling verses out of context to fit your view, but your view is not according to the Scriptures.

The Scripture is not like a puzzle, man creates a puzzle, puzzling the mind of many with a distorted view.

Tell me what is the something that took place, that David saw?

Asa and Benjamin do not portray the actions of the natural as described in 1 Cor 2:14 that cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and thinks they are foolishness. 2 Chronicles 15.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

There are many things David said he went through and saw that it is not found in the Scriptures, does that mean that he did not go through it? No. As for 2nd Chronicles, what the Spirit of God made clear was that if one seeks God, God will be found.

Let's not get off the subject, you believe that God chooses the elects, in other words, if you are not one of the elect you enter eternal damnation, which according to you then God sends them to everlasting damnation. Read Mark 16:15-16, the last commandment Yeshua gave to the disciples was... . “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE and HE WHO BELIEVES (meaning anyone) and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. It is clear that God ministers the Gospel of Salvation to everyone and that it is one's choice whether they want to serve God or not.
You are pulling verses out of context to fit your view, a distorted view that many have been impressed with. It is clear from Mark 16:15-16 that your views is not according to the Scriptures, but you will deliberately refused to acknowledge the truth of this passage because you cannot accept that God is making himself clear through his word. Remember this... when it comes to the Gospel of Salvation, if you pull one verse out of context you distort the truth Gospel of Salvation that Salvation is available to all not just a few.

I explained John 17:2 and you are too blind to see the truth of God's word, maybe you are a natural man? Just my humor, but trying to get your attention. I have learned a long time ago that it is okay to swallow one's pride, in other words, it is not it should not be about one wanting to be right, but about God being right. From Mark 16:14-16. you are emphatically wrong.

As for 1 Cor. 2:14, it says, but the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned, of course because they are not seeking God, but remember no one will have an excuse because everyone knows that Yeshua died on the cross.

 

[Timothy5378]

THE CORRECT ANSWER IS

NO ITS NOT BIBLICAL LOL

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Jesus is definitely praying for his twelve disciples in John 17. This is not a reference to some "elect" group.

What about 1 Cor 1:26ff?

Who is this describing?

By the way, he also prays for all who believe in him despite never seeing him, in the same passage.

Do you seriously think that the rest of believers just happened to stumble into salvation, or were wise/spiritual enough to choose Christ, while the rest were not?

How do you exegete Ephesians 2:1-10 in this regard?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Jesus is definitely praying for his twelve disciples in John 17. This is not a reference to some "elect" group.

I suggest you go back and read John 6, 10, Romans 8-11, Ephesians 2 carefully.

 

[John146]

I suggest you go back and read John 6, 10, Romans 8-11, Ephesians 2 carefully.

Through the eyes of Calvin? Lol, I have read these passage many times. Calvin's doctrine is false. A few verses taken out of context doesn't prove anything.

Also, you cannot use passages to the Jewish disciples as evidence to support anything about the NT Church, the body of Christ.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Through the eyes of Calvin? Lol, I have read these passage many times. Calvin's doctrine is false. A few verses taken out of context doesn't prove anything.

Also, you cannot use passages to the Jewish disciples as evidence to support anything about the NT Church, the body of Christ.

You're a dispensationalist apparently, reading Scripture through Darby and Scofield's eyes. I am not a dispensationist, and in fact view it to be a grave error.

Note this folks....these guys believe that "rightly dividing the Scriptures" means dicing it into pieces according to dispensations. Dispensationalist churches primarily preach from the Scriptures they think are applicable to the Church, and assign the rest to ancient Israel or the Millennium.

Many of them don't even believe the New Covenant is for the Church. They deny this because they believe the New Covenant only applies to ancient Israel. Therefore, the verses in Ezekiel below regarding being born again are only for the Jews, and some would claim they are only for the Jews in the Millennial age.

Dispensationalism is a garbage theology that unfortunately the majority of evangelical churches believe, due to the influence of free-willers like Pentecostals and charismatics.

For instance, many of them believe that the Sermon on the Mount has nothing to say to Christians, as it was for the Jews.

They don't understand that the Scripture mentioning "rightly dividing the truth" is talking about discernment and not chopping Scripture up into dispensations.

 

[John146]

You're a dispensationalist apparently, reading Scripture through Darby and Scofield's eyes.

I am a dispensationalist, but I have never read anything from Darby or Scofield.

 

[John146]

You're a dispensationalist apparently, reading Scripture through Darby and Scofield's eyes. I am not a dispensationist, and in fact view it to be a grave error.

Note this folks....these guys believe that "rightly dividing the Scriptures" means dicing it into pieces according to dispensations. Dispensationalist churches primarily preach from the Scriptures they think are applicable to the Church, and assign the rest to ancient Israel or the Millennium.

Many of them don't even believe the New Covenant is for the Church. They deny this because they believe the New Covenant only applies to ancient Israel. Therefore, the verses in Ezekiel below regarding being born again are only for the Jews, and some would claim they are only for the Jews in the Millennial age.

Dispensationalism is a garbage theology that unfortunately the majority of evangelical churches believe, due to the influence of free-willers like Pentecostals and charismatics.

For instance, many of them believe that the Sermon on the Mount has nothing to say to Christians, as it was for the Jews.

They don't understand that the Scripture mentioning "rightly dividing the truth" is talking about discernment and not chopping Scripture up into dispensations.

Curious, what do you define as the New Covenant?

You also believe in dispensations, but you just don't admit it. God has dealt with mankind in different ways and has given different commands throughout human history. Yes? Ever hear of progressive revelation?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I am a dispensationalist, but I have never read anything from Darby or Scofield.

I am Reformed, and I have never read anything more than memes or a few short writings of John Calvin.

The theology reflects Scripture. Period.

I am amazed that guys like you continue to deny the core principles of it. But, I don't really care because my theology isn't obtained by group consensus on a forum.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Curious, what do you define as the New Covenant?

You also believe in dispensations, but you just don't admit it. God has dealt with mankind in different ways and has given different commands throughout human history. Yes? Ever hear of progressive revelation?

God's purpose has never changed. It is organic and is moving toward a conclusion. The point of dispensationalism is, in essence, multiple failures, and God starting over after each failure with a new dispensation.

The Mosaic Law period was not a failure. It was part of an organic movement toward the Messiah, Jesus. Certain commands were shadows and types of the Savior and the New Covenant to come, as well as defining sin so that the groundwork would be in place for one of the means toward faith and repentance.

Dispensationalism is based, in essence, on multiple dispensations meant to demonstrate man's inability to please God. Covenant theology is much more organic in nature. It progresses like an acorn progresses to form a tree.

As a result, Dispensationalists don't really have a coherent metanarrative of Scripture.

By the way, I am aware that dispensationalism has produced "progressive dispensationalism" which is basically an admission of the failures of classical dispensationalism and their theology, so in some ways, some dispensationalists are moving closer and closer to covenant theology. That is why it's hard to nail down dispensationalists on their doctrine.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Curious, what do you define as the New Covenant?

You also believe in dispensations, but you just don't admit it. God has dealt with mankind in different ways and has given different commands throughout human history. Yes? Ever hear of progressive revelation?

Hebrews 8:8-12
8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”
(ESV)

The New Covenant involves forgiveness through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. It involves receiving the Holy Spirit as a gift. It involves men and women being personally indwelt by the Holy Spirit and taught by him. It involves union with Christ. It involves true forgiveness of sin.

And, before you say that this only applies to Israel and Judah, based on the above verses, the Church is true Israel. See Scriptures below. All who have been joined to Jesus are descendants of Abraham, and share the inheritance of his offspring, Jesus.

There is a fundamental denial of these concepts embedded within dispensationalism.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Curious, what do you define as the New Covenant?

You also believe in dispensations, but you just don't admit it. God has dealt with mankind in different ways and has given different commands throughout human history. Yes? Ever hear of progressive revelation?

what he does not tell us, is there are many kinds of 'reformed' beliefs

for instance, many believe that God has chosen them but do not believe He creates folks to send to hell to keep the fire burning bright

and he never will tell us, cause the group he belongs to, is considered hyper calvinism and takes reformed theology into outer space

in fact, if you ask quite a large number of 'reformed' believers, they would be surprised to know about TULIP

so we are only getting extreme views from this poster ... thing is, he knows it!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There are many things David said he went through and saw that it is not found in the Scriptures, does that mean that he did not go through it? No. As for 2nd Chronicles, what the Spirit of God made clear was that if one seeks God, God will be found.

Let's not get off the subject, you believe that God chooses the elects, in other words, if you are not one of the elect you enter eternal damnation, which according to you then God sends them to everlasting damnation. Read Mark 16:15-16, the last commandment Yeshua gave to the disciples was... . “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE and HE WHO BELIEVES (meaning anyone) and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. It is clear that God ministers the Gospel of Salvation to everyone and that it is one's choice whether they want to serve God or not.
You are pulling verses out of context to fit your view, a distorted view that many have been impressed with. It is clear from Mark 16:15-16 that your views is not according to the Scriptures, but you will deliberately refused to acknowledge the truth of this passage because you cannot accept that God is making himself clear through his word. Remember this... when it comes to the Gospel of Salvation, if you pull one verse out of context you distort the truth Gospel of Salvation that Salvation is available to all not just a few.

I explained John 17:2 and you are too blind to see the truth of God's word, maybe you are a natural man? Just my humor, but trying to get your attention. I have learned a long time ago that it is okay to swallow one's pride, in other words, it is not it should not be about one wanting to be right, but about God being right. From Mark 16:14-16. you are emphatically wrong.

As for 1 Cor. 2:14, it says, but the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned, of course because they are not seeking God, but remember no one will have an excuse because everyone knows that Yeshua died on the cross.

Your statement; "There are many things David said he went through and saw that is not found in the scriptures". Where did you find these things that David went through and saw? If it's not found in the scriptures, are you taking some person's personal thoughts on what David went through and saw? Scripture proves scripture. You would profit in your understanding of the doctrine that Jesus taught, if you would stick with the scriptures, instead of letting other people's opinions sway your thinking.

Mark 16:15-16, The commandment to "go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" has already been fulfilled, according to Col 1:23. You mentioned, earlier, that maybe I was but a natural man, as the reason that I could not understand the scriptures the same way as you. So, you do understand the incapabilities of the natural man, that does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that he cannot discern the things of the Spirit. Are you suggesting that Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach to the natural man, that cannot discern the spiritual things that they are preaching about?

The newborn babes in Christ, who have a need to grow in knowledge of the gospel, are the people that Jesus instructed his Apostles to preach to, and they are scattered all over the world. Matt 10:5-6, These 12 Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not, but go rather to the lost sheep (babes in Christ) of the house of Israel (not the nation of Israel, because all Israel is not of Israel). God changed Jacob's name to be called "Israel", Gen 33:28. Jacob/Israel is representative of God's elect.

Jeremiah 50:6, My people hath been "lost sheep", their shepherds (preaching false doctrines) have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains; they have gone from mountain to hill (all over the world), they have forgotten their resting place.

The English language, to other countries, is difficult to understand, because one word can have many different applications. Several words, in the English translated bibles, have different applications, according to their context. SAVED, in Mark 15:16, being one of those words. 1 Pet 3:20-21, When once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were "saved by water". (not saved eternally, but from drowning) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but "the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (saved, not eternally, but from our guilty conscience toward God).

Saved, in the Greek language means "delivered". We are delivered eternally, and we are delivered many times as we sojourn here in this world.