Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[Timothy5378]

^ Generally speaking, pre-tribbers believe that there are no biblically-defined "SIGNS" that precede our Rapture, but that all of them FOLLOW our Rapture (all of them transpiring in the specific, limited time-period leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth). So I'd say "nah" on that. Just my two cents.

Signs will come before the rapture and are now. And after the rapture

Both are said

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Signs will come before the rapture and are now. And after the rapture

Both are said

Here's where you and I likely differ... Let me start with just a brief aspect for this post (as it is getting late):

--I believe the phrases "before the GREAT" (like in Joel 2:31 / Revelation 6:12 "moon into blood [SIXTH SEAL]") refers NOT to "before the trib in its ENTIRETY"; but instead refers to "before the GREAT [i.e. before the SECOND HALF; that is "IN/DURING the FIRST HALF" of the 7-yrs total]… so the SIXTH SEAL occurs "BEFORE the GREAT [i.e before the second half]"

--the same phrase as found in Malachi 4:5 likewise refers to "before the GREAT," which I also believe refers to "in/during the FIRST HALF," rather than "before the trib in its ENTIRETY"



So, 2Th2:3-9a is providing a SEQUENCE that basically informs us that "our Rapture"/"THE Departure" must take place "FIRST" before "the DOTL [earthly time-period]" (with its "man of sin") can "be present" to unfold upon the earth; and 1Th4-5 provides this SAME SEQUENCE, with 1Th5:2-3 telling us that "the DOTL [earthly time-period] will ARRIVE as a thief IN THE NIGHT" at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (parallel Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['A CERTAIN ONE' bringing deception]'," which is parallel to the FIRST SEAL (Rev6) at the START of the 7-yr period... as well as 2Th2:9a,8a,3b / Dan9:27a[26b]);

The INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" will "come upon" them because it immediately follows "our Rapture/THE Departure *FIRST*" as the text states in 2Th2:3 (and then many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 and parallels I just named]," just as Jesus had stated). Thus, I believe all "SIGNS" follow after our Rapture has taken place (and point toward His Second Coming to the earth Rev19).



Having said that, this does NOT mean that I believe we are totally "in the dark" as to our rapture-timing, for I believe Scripture has much to say about it (more than is commonly realized). I believe it is abundant.

 

[Timothy5378]

Yep...and

Armageddon is an asteroid that Bruce Willis will destroy lol. Not the world at the hands of the beasts trying to kill Jesus at the second coming...

People are so full of lies now

We only get clean thru His Word

 

[Timothy5378]

There are going to be earthquakes and disasters etc...before the rapture Matt 24

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yep...and

I can't tell if you are saying you agree (or don't) with my statement where I'd said:

So, 2Th2:3-9a is providing a SEQUENCE that basically informs us that "our Rapture"/"THE Departure" must take place "FIRST" before "the DOTL [earthly time-period]" (with its "man of sin") can "be present" to unfold upon the earth

So, from there, I am equating the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" (FOLLOWING our Rapture) with the ARRIVAL also of "the DOTL time -period" (which ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" is the EQUIVALENT of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" that Jesus spoke of as FIRST in His LISTING of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" and EQUIVALENT to SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yr trib).

Therefore, everything that FOLLOWS Matt24:4/Mk13:5 (the FIRST of those BoBPs) comes AFTER the man of sin's ARRIVAL ("whose coming" is at the START of the trib, = SEAL #1 [the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]"), see...??

Therefore, also AFTER "our Rapture"/"THE Departure *FIRST*"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Nothing in the Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of "our Rapture" (nor things that lead up to it); but that which FOLLOWS "our Rapture" and leads up to (and points them toward) His Second Coming to the earth and the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there.


[note: except for about 11-12 verses in Lk21 that speak of the 70ad events (vv.12-24a, with 24b following on from there)]


Matt24:4/Mk13:5 = 1Th5:2-3 = SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yr trib (i.e. the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period and the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL]" of the man of sin IN HIS TIME)

 

[Timothy5378]

Well I would say that there are things in Matt 24 and it's other places that are before the rapture...i found that most believe the rapture is between Rev 3 and 4. The throne room is the beginning of 7 year trib...all seals are part of 7 year trib...

But some timing things may not be clear...but the rapture is followed by the Antichrist being revealed...He will have been alive a life time as Elijah to come...both will pass thru the rapture...Elijah to come will be helping before the rapture...but after will be dropping plagues the last 3.5 years and hurting...

If we disagree on any point...you can state those places and I will examine what you say...in case I missed something

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well, where you say "all seals are part of the 7 year trib..." I agree completely.

It's just that I believe SEAL #1 EQUALS the "ARRIVAL of the man of sin" (i.e. the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL/ADVENT/PRESENCE/parousia" of the man of sin, per 2Th2:9a [equivalent also to Dan9:27a(26b "[prince] THAT SHALL COME")]); ...which is the EQUIVALENT of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that Jesus listed... so Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'<---This is the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin IN HIS TIME"... (FOLLOWING "our Rapture/THE Departure")…

SEAL #1 EQUALS the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" of those Jesus listed there (Matt24:4/Mk13:5)!

Then the REST of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" FOLLOW ON from that INITIAL one (and that INITIAL one FOLLOWS after "our Rapture/THE Departure"... so we are not present on the earth for ANY of "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus listed in Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11... ALL of them FOLLOW after "our Rapture/THE Departure")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ to boil it down,

the SEALS equal "the beginning of birth PANGS"


[they are IN the 7-yr trib, not preceding it]

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I was going to respond to this yesterday, but I guess I forgot to, lol.

I think that the mistaken idea that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is up in Heaven, taking place (up there) BEFORE His "return," is one [emphasis: just ONE] of the reasons people fail to recognize the actual SEQUENCE of events.

I do not believe "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is what will take place UP IN Heaven (following "our Rapture"); but is instead what will take place on the earth upon His "return" to the earth (and we "WITH [G4862] Him"--as already-wed).

I believe "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is synonymous with "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" (at least, its inauguration)… it takes place ON THE EARTH, upon His "return" there [see Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." ...THEN the meal!!]

IOW, He is not returning/coming to MARRY the "10 Virgins [PLURAL]" (NOR even 5!) That is NOT what that parable is about (meaning, it's not about "the MARRIAGE [/UNION-G4862]" itself). Instead, they are said to "go in with [G3326 - meta - ACCOMPANYING] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER, v.10.
These "10 Virgins" (and the "INVITED guests" in Matt22:8-14 / Rev19:9 [DISTINCT from "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" in v.7]) NEVER LIFT OFF THE EARTH, but are there on the earth upon His "RETURN" there.

"The wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]" = "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth]" = "the age [singular] to come [Matt12:32; on the earth]" = "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth as an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom"
(WITH-G4862 [/UNIONED-with] His "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" Rev19:7 [distinct from the "INVITED GUESTS [PLURALS]" in 19:9!])

Thank you for your reply.

I think it is good to remember that Jesus was a Jew, addressing the Jews. They understood what was being said and that is why He used parables they would understand. For you and me to understand we have to look at their traditions because then so many other things start making sense.

In Afrikaans there is a saying (directly translated) - the bullet is through the church. If you are listening to 2 Afrikaans guys saying this you would think a war has broken out, but in reality it means something is done, it has happened, nothing can be done about it. Without understanding my culture you will get it wrong 10 times out of 10. To make matters worse if you ask somebody about it 1000 years from now and nobody is using this saying anymore there will even be more chaos.

This is why it is important to understand the culture of that time and try understand why Jesus would use examples He was using. They understand a wedding feast. They knew the groom would not enter the brides house again (our house is the earth) and that she would run to him (we running to Jesus being taken up in the air). He would take her away to the place he prepared (Jesus said will prepare a place at His Father's house) and so we can go on and on and on.

We can rather agree to disagree but make a study about it and things will fall into place

 

[Timothy5378]

Well I disagree with Matt 24 birth pangs being the first seal...the things that are going on are now and before the rapture...the gospel has to be preached to the whole world then the end will come...this seems to be before rapture while the church is still here to preach the gospel...earthquakes and wars etc...before

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thank you for your reply.
I think it is good to remember that Jesus was a Jew, addressing the Jews. They understood what was being said and that is why He used parables they would understand. For you and me to understand we have to look at their traditions because then so many other things start making sense.

In Afrikaans there is a saying (directly translated) - the bullet is through the church. If you are listening to 2 Afrikaans guys saying this you would think a war has broken out, but in reality it means something is done, it has happened, nothing can be done about it. Without understanding my culture you will get it wrong 10 times out of 10. To make matters worse if you ask somebody about it 1000 years from now and nobody is using this saying anymore there will even be more chaos.

This is why it is important to understand the culture of that time and try understand why Jesus would use examples He was using. They understand a wedding feast. They knew the groom would not enter the brides house again (our house is the earth) and that she would run to him (we running to Jesus being taken up in the air). He would take her away to the place he prepared (Jesus said will prepare a place at His Father's house) and so we can go on and on and on.

We can rather agree to disagree but make a study about it and things will fall into place

I think when they heard each of "the parables of the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (and also when ppl later read them), they understood correctly that NO BRIDE is being mentioned in ANY of them [that is, in the gospels].

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well I disagree with Matt 24 birth pangs being the first seal...the things that are going on are now and before the rapture...the gospel has to be preached to the whole world then the end will come...this seems to be before rapture while the church is still here to preach the gospel...earthquakes and wars etc...before

There are a number of studies out there COMPARING the SEALS in Rev6 to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" in the Olivet Discourse.



[my posts are merely pointing out other additional passages which also correlate, like 1Th5:2-3 being the INITIAL one [SINGULAR] of those, and that that correlates with what is referred to in 2Th2:9a,8a,3b, the ARRIVAL of the man of sin IN HIS TIME (i.e. at the START of the trib) also (just like in Dan9:27a), not that he doesn't exist as a person prior to that "point in time," mind you ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Oh, and I had meant to touch briefly on Matt24:14/26:13 [/Rev7:9], which will be "preached in all the world for a witness unto all the nations" IN/DURING the trib years (that msg will INCLUDE the fact that "the kingdom" will be [at that point] VERY SOON to arrive [i.e. His Second Coming to the earth Rev19]). I made a few posts about the 26:13 (correlating) verse's contents [per its context].



[IOW, that particular msg FOLLOWS "our Rapture"/"THE Departure"]

 

[Timothy5378]

i think matt 24 the beginning is before the rapture...the church will get the gospel to all nations then the rapture will come and the end...matt 24 starts with things before the rapture can happen...the dogs are getting ripe..people are falling away...false people abound...the gospel is going out...Bible translations...are greater than ever. TV and other media are growing...travel is easier...etc...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believe the "ye/you" of Matthew 24 is a "consistent 'you'" and a "proleptic 'you'" (meaning the "ye/you" of v.15 is talking about the same people-group/"ye/you" in v.9 ["[…] and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake"]); that is, the "proleptic 'you'" basically means, "all those in the future, OF THE SAME CATEGORY," and in this case, it is speaking of "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised" (i.e. Israel--namely, the future believing remnant of Israel, in this context).

I do not believe the passage is switching from speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (us) in the early verses, to then be speaking of the far-future believing remnant of Israel only at v.15 and forward (again, the "consistent" and "proleptic 'YOU'" throughout)


[note again, that I believe Matthew 24:29-31 parallels Isaiah 27:12-13 (re: Israel)]

 

[Timothy5378]

Hmmm...well I think matt 24 begins with prior to rapture..then goes into trib and then hits the second coming..a progression

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hmmm...well I think matt 24 begins with prior to rapture..then goes into trib and then hits the second coming..a progression

You may continue to disagree, but in past posts I've endeavored to point out how the 7-yrs is consistently shown in its three parts (namely, as in, its "BEGINNING," its "MIDDLE," and its "END") in quite a number of places:

--Rev6:2... Rev13:1-7... Rev19

--Dan9:27a[/26b]... Dan9:27b... Dan9:27c

--2Th2:9a/8a/3b[/1Th5:2-3]... 2Th2:4... 2Th2:8b

--Matt24:4/Mk13:5... Matt24:15... Matt24:29-31[/Isa27:12-13]


[other verses of course...]

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I think when they heard each of "the parables of the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (and also when ppl later read them), they understood correctly that NO BRIDE is being mentioned in ANY of them [that is, in the gospels].

for a wedding feast to be held you need a bride and groom.... else it was just a party

 

[Dave-L]

A pre-trib rapture is boilerplate. If you have eyes to see and ears to hear. So obvious even the Geiko Caveman figured it out.

The rapture;

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)


But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)