Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[cv5]

I believe the "ye/you" of Matthew 24 is a "consistent 'you'" and a "proleptic 'you'" (meaning the "ye/you" of v.15 is talking about the same people-group/"ye/you" in v.9 ["[…] and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake"]); that is, the "proleptic 'you'" basically means, "all those in the future, OF THE SAME CATEGORY," and in this case, it is speaking of "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised" (i.e. Israel--namely, the future believing remnant of Israel, in this context).

I do not believe the passage is switching from speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (us) in the early verses, to then be speaking of the far-future believing remnant of Israel only at v.15 and forward (again, the "consistent" and "proleptic 'YOU'" throughout)


[note again, that I believe Matthew 24:29-31 parallels Isaiah 27:12-13 (re: Israel)]

Exquiste scholarly treatment. What is your education? Greek studies?

 

[CS1]

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says the same:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

TOP DOG? hahaha

 

[Nehemiah6]

But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

You are simply confused about this matter, neither are you rightly dividing the Word of Truth. And that is because you prefer the doctrines of men over the Word of God. You do not even understand what "the last day" means (since it is not one 24 hour day).

The simplest way to understand the truth of the Pre-tribulation Rapture is to know that Christ must first come FOR His saints BEFORE He can come WITH His saints at the Second Coming.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

It is quite amazing to think that Enoch -- the seventh from Adam -- prophesied about the Second Coming of Christ long before the book of Revelation was written. But here is what we find in Revelation:

And I saw Heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself. And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in Heaven [the saints] followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev 19:11-14)

This is immediately after the Marriage of the Lamb (with all the saints present in Heaven) and before the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Noose]

The doctrine of rapture came from a misunderstanding of the phrase 'caught in the air'. There's no rapture at all because what that phrase means is that the dead rise and indwell the living and this is ongoing.
People do not rise and fly off to space but heaven (in the new covenant) means the hearts of living believers- this is where God dwells and will always dwell.

 

[Dave-L]

You are simply confused about this matter, neither are you rightly dividing the Word of Truth. And that is because you prefer the doctrines of men over the Word of God. You do not even understand what "the last day" means (since it is not one 24 hour day).

The simplest way to understand the truth of the Pre-tribulation Rapture is to know that Christ must first come FOR His saints BEFORE He can come WITH His saints at the Second Coming.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

It is quite amazing to think that Enoch -- the seventh from Adam -- prophesied about the Second Coming of Christ long before the book of Revelation was written. But here is what we find in Revelation:

And I saw Heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself. And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in Heaven [the saints] followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev 19:11-14)

This is immediately after the Marriage of the Lamb (with all the saints present in Heaven) and before the battle of Armageddon.

You need to interpret Revelation by the clear scriptures, especially Jesus' kingdom teachings in the gospels. And not interpret the clear scriptures by the obscure.

 

[CS1]

The doctrine of rapture came from a misunderstanding of the phrase 'caught in the air'. There's no rapture at all because what that phrase means is that the dead rise and indwell the living and this is ongoing.
People do not rise and fly off to space but heaven (in the new covenant) means the hearts of living believers- this is where God dwells and will always dwell.

SO in the Book Of Acts chapter 1 where the Apostles were eyewitness OF Jesus being taken UP did not happen literally ? And the words spoken by the two Angels was not said? Noah did not make and Ark and the whole world was not Flooded? Moses Did not cross the Red Sea on Dry land with thousands of People? The wall of Jericho did not come down, Elijah did not go UP into Heaven and Enoch did not walk with God and wa no more? Seems to me the "TOP Dog" does not see that this same God who split the Red Sea, Flooded the whole earth, took up a Prophet , Tore down a wall , Sent fire to destroy a sinful city is not capable of Raising the dead and taking up the living into Heaven as Jesus, Paul, and others said would happen. Maybe the problem is not the doctrine of the Rapture but more of ones pride wanting to be right and not see that the taking of the church is valid point in scripture. Why ? Because God has done so many things that Most "TOP Dogs" doubt HE even did.... Literally.

 

[Noose]

SO in the Book Of Acts chapter 1 where the Apostles were eyewitness OF Jesus being taken UP did not happen literally ? And the words spoken by the two Angels was not said? Noah did not make and Ark and the whole world was not Flooded? Moses Did not cross the Red Sea on Dry land with thousands of People? The wall of Jericho did not come down, Elijah did not go UP into Heaven and Enoch did not walk with God and wa no more? Seems to me the "TOP Dog" does not see that this same God who split the Red Sea, Flooded the whole earth, took up a Prophet , Tore down a wall , Sent fire to destroy a sinful city is not capable of Raising the dead and taking up the living into Heaven as Jesus, Paul, and others said would happen. Maybe the problem is not the doctrine of the Rapture but more of ones pride wanting to be right and not see that the taking of the church is valid point in scripture. Why ? Because God has done so many things that Most "TOP Dogs" doubt HE even did.... Literally.

John 17:15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. ....

20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

Not that God can not rapture people out of the world, it is about His will.

 

[Absolutely]

The rapture;

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)


But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)

The rapture ressurrection are the dead in Christ...EXCLUSUVE RESURRECTION.
Not the general resurrection at the end of the world.

You leave out dead in Christ,then go on to prove your doctrine.

Backwards ...not sytematic.

 

[Dave-L]

The rapture ressurrection are the dead in Christ...EXCLUSUVE RESURRECTION.
Not the general resurrection at the end of the world.

You leave out dead in Christ,then go on to prove your doctrine.

Backwards ...not sytematic.

Scripture refutes your position. Notice:
The rapture;

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)


But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)

 

[Absolutely]

John 17:15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. ....

20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

Not that God can not rapture people out of the world, it is about His will.

The innumerable number in heaven are no longer in t h e world .That is possibly many millions/billions.

But wait,rev 14 has a rapture DURING THE GT.

All the "taken" verses are in peacetime setting,including mat 24 "ones taken"

The bride/virgins of mat 25 are also peacetine settings as is "noah before the flood"(Jesus own words)

Further,the rapture is the gathering of the bride.
I never hear a postrib adherent invoke ANYTHING concerning the bride dynamic.

It appalls me that the single most apex of heavens next event,the gathering of the bride,it absent from all postrib rapture adherants doctrine.
It does not merit a mention.

That alone should be a huge red flag to those that support a groomless doctrine .

Seems impossible actually.

 

[Absolutely]

Scripture refutes your position. Notice:
The rapture;

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)


But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 (HCSB)

“so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)

Amen
It fits perfectly

What YOU DO is insert YOUR spin into verses.

The last resurrection in TO the gwt judgement,AFTER the mil

 

[PlainWord]

The rapture is neither pre, mid or post tribulation. It is a continuous event all Christians experience upon death. When we die, we are immediately "raptured" or caught up to heaven. There is no resurrection (coming out of Hades) for us. We don't sleep there as those before Christ did.

 

[Dave-L]

Amen
It fits perfectly

What YOU DO is insert YOUR spin into verses.

The last resurrection in TO the gwt judgement,AFTER the mil

There is no millennium.

 

[Absolutely]

Dave-L said:
"Scripture refutes your position"


You cliche verses into oblivion.

Note postribs heavy,heavy emphasis on ;

Trumpets
Trump
Last day
Last trump
Air
The word rapture as incorrectb(to figure a way to avoid caught up)
Margaret mcdonald
Tim lahaye
Darby
Dispensation

Heavy,heavy into nothing burgers.

 

[Absolutely]

There is no millennium.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You just removed yourself from any plausable scenario.

You center yourself on a farce

 

[Absolutely]

There is no millennium.

I was wondering where your outlandish scripture veggie mix deal originated

 

[Absolutely]

The rapture is neither pre, mid or post tribulation. It is a continuous event all Christians experience upon death. When we die, we are immediately "raptured" or caught up to heaven. There is no resurrection (coming out of Hades) for us. We don't sleep there as those before Christ did.

Rediculous.

 

[CS1]

John 17:15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. ....

20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

Not that God can not rapture people out of the world, it is about His will.

To suggest that God doing so is not even a biblical application when as a normative God Took Noah out of the way of judgement, Opened the red Sea to allow Hs children to pass then closing it on the ungodly, and taking up a a prophet, and the Lord HIMself being taken up. When those who disagree with the Pretrib Rapture mock scoff and lambast an application that is scripturally plausible and Seen God do. When Jesus says in Matt 24 and Paul in 1Thess 4 2cor 5:10 John 14:3 Phil 3:20-21 Danial 12 1-2 1cor 15: 51-53

The same Jesus who said " I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one." he also said in that same chapter verse 16:
"They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify[i] them by Your truth. Your word is truth.:
Jesus needed the Disciples to remain to preach the word of Truth. They were protected until their mission was completed. Now they wait for the glorification of the body Jesu said would happen. and so do we.

 

[Noose]

The innumerable number in heaven are no longer in t h e world .That is possibly many millions/billions.

But wait,rev 14 has a rapture DURING THE GT.

All the "taken" verses are in peacetime setting,including mat 24 "ones taken"

The bride/virgins of mat 25 are also peacetine settings as is "noah before the flood"(Jesus own words)

Further,the rapture is the gathering of the bride.
I never hear a postrib adherent invoke ANYTHING concerning the bride dynamic.

It appalls me that the single most apex of heavens next event,the gathering of the bride,it absent from all postrib rapture adherants doctrine.
It does not merit a mention.

That alone should be a huge red flag to those that support a groomless doctrine .

Seems impossible actually.

There's no pre/mid/post trib anything. There will be no rapture at any time. I have just quoted Jesus praying against rapture and you are trying to say Rev 14 and Matt 24 are talking about rapture. Rapture is one big misunderstanding.

1. Those supposed verses about rapture do not mean people will fly off to the space.

2. Gathering is a term used but it doesn't mean people flying off; It was the term used when the OT saint passed on. "..Abraham died and was gathered to his people/ Isaac died and was gathered to his people/ Jacob died and was gathered to his people/ Moses died and was gathered to his people.."

The NT gathering also does not mean people will be flying off.

3. No OT prophet saw this rapture yet they prophesied about resurrection.

 

[Noose]

The rapture is neither pre, mid or post tribulation. It is a continuous event all Christians experience upon death. When we die, we are immediately "raptured" or caught up to heaven. There is no resurrection (coming out of Hades) for us. We don't sleep there as those before Christ did.

This simple truth people can not and will not grasp soon. But thank you.