Not By Works

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EleventhHour

Guest
It lines up perfectly with Romans 4, Abraham was saved grace through faith and not works. In James 2, Abraham's faith was justified as being true saving faith when he offered up Isaac. "Fake faith" would not allow Abraham to offer up his son.
No such thing as fake faith.

Faith is faith.

There may be false teachers and fakers but there is no faith involved.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Notice it's an individual's faith, Abraham's faith. After the cross, the believer is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. Huge difference. Christ's faith was not available to Abraham. In the OT, a man lived by his own faith. We live by the faith of Jesus Christ. His faith never waivers. His faith never fails.
I disagree, we are Abraham's SEED, he is the father of those who have the faith of Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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No such thing as fake faith.

Faith is faith.
Let's say that the contrast of true faith are those listed below. They claim to know God and work for God but their faith is not real, they are not true believers... that's what I'm calling fake faith.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Are you serious?? o_O

How about the entire Bible... that should be plenty of instruction.

I see nothing in that letter that would signify it is for a certain eschatological time period.

Can you give me a verse?
My guess is you don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the church?
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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It lines up perfectly with Romans 4, Abraham was saved grace through faith and not works. In James 2, Abraham's faith was justified as being true saving faith when he offered up Isaac. "Fake faith" would not allow Abraham to offer up his son.
Not justified before God as true faith. God does not need proof.

The way you worded this sounds like "God will not see your faith as "true saving faith" until you justify it by ...etc"


If this is what you're implying happened you are incorrect.


God knows who He calls, He knows who He has made new, He knows who He has SAVED by PROMISE without changing of mind.

Nothing our behavior will show Him will supprise Him. Our works can not justify our faith before God.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Let's say that the contrast of true faith are those listed below. They claim to know God and work for God but their faith is not real, they are not true believers... that's what I'm calling fake faith.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Well it is not biblical faith.

Biblical faith is a connected to God.

I can agree these people had faith, it was not so much fake faith, it was the "wrong" faith... is was in themselves.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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Well it is not biblical faith.

Biblical faith is a connected to God.

I can agree these people had faith, it was not so much fake faith, it was the "wrong" faith... is was in themselves.
Spot on.

There are FAKERS in the church(body of Christ) but they do not have faith in Jesus.


Their works couldn't justify them before God either. (or justify their "faith" as real faith before God)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Not justified before God as true faith. God does not need proof.

The way you worded this sounds like "God will not see your faith as "true saving faith" until you justify it by ...etc"


If this is what you're implying happened you are incorrect.


God knows who He calls, He knows who He has made new, He knows who He has SAVED by PROMISE without changing of mind.

Nothing our behavior will show Him will supprise Him. Our works can not justify our faith before God.
Yes I agree, God knows all things and nothing has to be proven to him.

James 2 was written to all believers and it illustrates how true faith will be seen through the believer's works... God already knows this, this is for us.

Works salvation people don't believe that James 2 is about the justification of Abraham's faith, they believe it's about the justification of Abraham (as in Abraham was "made right" by grace and his works), but it's not about HIS justification as a person, it's about the justification of his faith.

If I tell you that I have faith, that means nothing, maybe I do or maybe I don't. But if you see my works and they line up with my faith, then you will know that my faith is real.... now my faith is JUSTIFIED as being true faith.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Spot on.

There are FAKERS in the church(body of Christ) but they do not have faith in Jesus.


Their works couldn't justify them before God either. (or justify their "faith" as real faith before God)
Exactly!!

Ahhhh .. we agree. :)

We have had our disagreements I think back in the day.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Well it is not biblical faith.

Biblical faith is a connected to God.

I can agree these people had faith, it was not so much fake faith, it was the "wrong" faith... is was in themselves.
Amen! And that's what James 2 is all about. Abraham's faith was JUSTIFIED as being the "right" kind of faith when he offered up Isaac.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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Amen! And that's what James 2 is all about. Abraham's faith was JUSTIFIED as being the "right" kind of faith when he offered up Isaac.
Not before God.

(that is why I gave the disagree, if you are implying God needs to see works of righteousness to justify ones faith)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Not before God.

(that is why I gave the disagree, if you are implying God needs to see works of righteousness to justify ones faith)
I'm not implying that at all. Nothing about that verse involves Abraham being justified to God. God has nothing to do with that verse at all, the verse is about the justification of Abraham's faith period. It shows how to recognize true faith in God.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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A comedian on board..:D
It was semantics to start. I still stand by what I said back then. You just didn't like the word, "genuine faith".

Lol so I reworded the exact same point and we agreed.

I see your point though. There are also terms I avoid. I dislike denominations or "osas" and terms like that.
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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I'm not implying that at all. Nothing about that verse involves Abraham being justified to God. God has nothing to do with that verse at all, the verse is about the justification of Abraham's faith period. It shows how to recognize true faith in God.
Brother...we may agree.
To whom does it show true faith to?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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James is writing to the Jewish believers who were scattered abroad , those who believed in Jesus , and his letter is also shown to us as how we should live our lives in Christ...

Many Jewish believers from all the tribes were scattered...
There were obviously part of James' audience who had not received the word and their souls were not saved.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Amen! And that's what James 2 is all about. Abraham's faith was JUSTIFIED as being the "right" kind of faith when he offered up Isaac.
Umm no

James speaking to a faith that justifies before men.

Meaning that inward faith is given an outward reality to people, so they can witness/see faith (which is not visible) made visible through action.

In that sense we are justified (the righteousness is seen) before men because there is congruence between our faith and our actions.