Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists
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Guyz, you are steadily going out of topic, let's focus.
On the subject of rapture, i want ask a question, initially asked by Paul. If your doctrine around resurrection has no clue of what i'm about to ask, then just know that you could be possibly out of line.
1 Cor 15:29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
I'm asking you @Absolutely & @CS1 and many other rapturists, If there is no resurrection, why were people baptizing for the dead? And even today, why are some baptizing for the dead? And what were the underlying belief for this practice?
Paul does not say this practice is wrong or bad, he uses it to reinforce his point on resurrection so it means that the underlying belief about baptizing for the dead was correct.
On the subject of rapture, i want ask a question, initially asked by Paul. If your doctrine around resurrection has no clue of what i'm about to ask, then just know that you could be possibly out of line.
1 Cor 15:29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
I'm asking you @Absolutely & @CS1 and many other rapturists, If there is no resurrection, why were people baptizing for the dead? And even today, why are some baptizing for the dead? And what were the underlying belief for this practice?
Paul does not say this practice is wrong or bad, he uses it to reinforce his point on resurrection so it means that the underlying belief about baptizing for the dead was correct.
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I concede that those who were resurrected during the Mosiac Age first returned to our physical realm before their trip to the spiritual realm. You cite two valid examples, Jesus and the 2 witnesses. But there is another example. You forgot the Mat 27:52-53 resurrections. Those resurrections were very visible, lots of witnesses. After all, there were those like the Sadducees who denied the resurrection. On the account of 2 or 3 witnesses, right? We had 3 here. Note, all 3 examples happened before 70 AD.
Something changed back then. We don't go to Hades anymore. We go straight to heaven as we see from the below excerpts. You can Google hundreds of articles like the one below. People float up, not down. This story differs greatly from the Luke 16 account Jesus gave.
Near Death Experiences as Stairways to Heaven
Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) are typically characterized by five common components: (1) An Out-of-Body Experience (OBE) with the feeling of floating above one's body and looking down; (2) Separation from the body; (3) Entering darkness through a tunnel or hallway; (4) Seeing a bright light at the end at the end of the tunnel that serves as a passageway to… (5) The other side, where light, God, angels, loved ones and others who have “passed over" are there to welcome the dying person.
The most famous NDE happened in 1984 when a migrant worker named Maria was hospitalized in Seattle after a heart attack. There in the ICU she suffered another cardiac arrest. After being resuscitated she reported that she floated out of her body up to the ceiling from where she could observe medical personnel working on her. Most remarkably, she says she then journeyed outside the hospital room where she saw a tennis shoe on the ledge of the third floor window. Her ICU social worker, a woman named Kimberly Clark, says she went up to the third floor and found a shoe on a window ledge: “The only way she could have had such a perspective was if she had been floating right outside and at very close range to the tennis shoe. I retrieved the shoe and brought it back to Maria; it was very concrete evidence to me."
Something changed back then. We don't go to Hades anymore. We go straight to heaven as we see from the below excerpts. You can Google hundreds of articles like the one below. People float up, not down. This story differs greatly from the Luke 16 account Jesus gave.
Near Death Experiences as Stairways to Heaven
Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) are typically characterized by five common components: (1) An Out-of-Body Experience (OBE) with the feeling of floating above one's body and looking down; (2) Separation from the body; (3) Entering darkness through a tunnel or hallway; (4) Seeing a bright light at the end at the end of the tunnel that serves as a passageway to… (5) The other side, where light, God, angels, loved ones and others who have “passed over" are there to welcome the dying person.
The most famous NDE happened in 1984 when a migrant worker named Maria was hospitalized in Seattle after a heart attack. There in the ICU she suffered another cardiac arrest. After being resuscitated she reported that she floated out of her body up to the ceiling from where she could observe medical personnel working on her. Most remarkably, she says she then journeyed outside the hospital room where she saw a tennis shoe on the ledge of the third floor window. Her ICU social worker, a woman named Kimberly Clark, says she went up to the third floor and found a shoe on a window ledge: “The only way she could have had such a perspective was if she had been floating right outside and at very close range to the tennis shoe. I retrieved the shoe and brought it back to Maria; it was very concrete evidence to me."
"rapturists" ? Is this a created word of term? The use of the urban Dictionary I do not recommend but to reach HIS own.
Your question I want to be respectful of it so I will post what I see in my thread ok?
"If there is no resurrection, why were people baptizing for the dead? And even today, why are some baptizing for the dead? And what were the underlying belief for this practice?"
For one I do not teach or believe there is no resurrection of the dead( in Christ) 1Thess 4:13-18. the context of 1cor 15:29 is found in the earlier verses. You left out verse 12 why?
1Cor 15:12
"Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
What verse 29 means to convey is being partakers of Christ death burial and resurrection As Romans 6:3-5
That point is addressed verses here in 1cor 15:20 going forward. you will see a parallel scriptures too found in 1 Thess 4:13-18
What Paul is saying in his asked the question in Verse 29 " What do you mean being baptized oh behalf of the dead"?
it is rhetorical. IF Jesus has not risen from the dead then what purpose was your accepting of Jesus for eternal life if HE has not risen?
the baptism Paul is talking about is the acceptance By faith Jesus is alive . IF he is not the dead have no hope and we that are live have no hope
Your question I want to be respectful of it so I will post what I see in my thread ok?
"If there is no resurrection, why were people baptizing for the dead? And even today, why are some baptizing for the dead? And what were the underlying belief for this practice?"
For one I do not teach or believe there is no resurrection of the dead( in Christ) 1Thess 4:13-18. the context of 1cor 15:29 is found in the earlier verses. You left out verse 12 why?
1Cor 15:12
"Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
What verse 29 means to convey is being partakers of Christ death burial and resurrection As Romans 6:3-5
That point is addressed verses here in 1cor 15:20 going forward. you will see a parallel scriptures too found in 1 Thess 4:13-18
What Paul is saying in his asked the question in Verse 29 " What do you mean being baptized oh behalf of the dead"?
it is rhetorical. IF Jesus has not risen from the dead then what purpose was your accepting of Jesus for eternal life if HE has not risen?
the baptism Paul is talking about is the acceptance By faith Jesus is alive . IF he is not the dead have no hope and we that are live have no hope
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Nice try but nope.
1stly, rapturists is a word i use to identify all those that believe in this doctrine, so don't get offended.
2ndly, all rapturists believe there's resurrection for the dead alright but when? they believe it is a mega one time event in future towards the end of age.
Well, Paul is talking to the 1st century people and asking them that question. He seems to suggest that 'resurrection is now' for he asks, "..what will they do those that are being baptized for the dead (now- 1st century)..", Paul is not asking for 21st century people or people towards the end of age when rapture happens who will be baptizing for the dead.
If resurrection and rapture only happens at the end of age, then Paul is wasting time talking to the 1st century people asking them useless question that has nothing to do with them and their practices.
3rdly, Baptizing for the dead is not baptizing on behalf of the dead.
1stly, rapturists is a word i use to identify all those that believe in this doctrine, so don't get offended.
2ndly, all rapturists believe there's resurrection for the dead alright but when? they believe it is a mega one time event in future towards the end of age.
Well, Paul is talking to the 1st century people and asking them that question. He seems to suggest that 'resurrection is now' for he asks, "..what will they do those that are being baptized for the dead (now- 1st century)..", Paul is not asking for 21st century people or people towards the end of age when rapture happens who will be baptizing for the dead.
If resurrection and rapture only happens at the end of age, then Paul is wasting time talking to the 1st century people asking them useless question that has nothing to do with them and their practices.
3rdly, Baptizing for the dead is not baptizing on behalf of the dead.
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Baptizing for the dead
1 Cor 15:29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
It is not baptizing living people on behalf of the dead and it is not believers being baptized on the testimony of dead believers or anything near this.
It is a very simple idea/belief of baptizing those that are alive in the name of known saints, believing that the dead saints will resurrect and indwell them, to help them in this life.
Are there any groups currently doing this? Yes, Catholics baptize people in the name of dead saints, example; Saint Mary/ St. Paul, St. John. The underlying belief is, the spirits of these dead saints will indwell those that are being baptized.
I'm not saying Catholicism i the right way or the correct religion nor did Paul mean those that were doing this during his time were the correct religion but that idea or the underlying belief is definitely true about our resurrection.
1 Cor 15:29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
It is not baptizing living people on behalf of the dead and it is not believers being baptized on the testimony of dead believers or anything near this.
It is a very simple idea/belief of baptizing those that are alive in the name of known saints, believing that the dead saints will resurrect and indwell them, to help them in this life.
Are there any groups currently doing this? Yes, Catholics baptize people in the name of dead saints, example; Saint Mary/ St. Paul, St. John. The underlying belief is, the spirits of these dead saints will indwell those that are being baptized.
I'm not saying Catholicism i the right way or the correct religion nor did Paul mean those that were doing this during his time were the correct religion but that idea or the underlying belief is definitely true about our resurrection.
Baptizing for the dead
Are there other passages that insinuate the dead indwell the living to help them? Yes.
The one passage that Catholics got this idea from is:
2 Pet 1: 12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
There's a difference between these two sentences:
1. And I will make every effort to see that 'after my departure you will always be able to remember these things'
2. And I will make every effort to see that 'you will always be able to remember these things after my departure'
Now you know what Peter meant. I don't know about Greek but in English, this is what it is. It means his efforts go well beyond his departure.
Are there other passages that insinuate the dead indwell the living to help them? Yes.
The one passage that Catholics got this idea from is:
2 Pet 1: 12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
There's a difference between these two sentences:
1. And I will make every effort to see that 'after my departure you will always be able to remember these things'
2. And I will make every effort to see that 'you will always be able to remember these things after my departure'
Now you know what Peter meant. I don't know about Greek but in English, this is what it is. It means his efforts go well beyond his departure.
Some people do wrong. What is the reason to baptized the death wether there is resurrection or not.
Say I am a murderer, never baptized never repent, than I die. Is bsptism bring me to heaven?
If so than let baptized every death that are not Christian.
I believe Paul talk to people that is not believe in resurrection but baptized the death.
More likely Paul say
If you do not believe resurrection why you baptized the death.
Say I am a murderer, never baptized never repent, than I die. Is bsptism bring me to heaven?
If so than let baptized every death that are not Christian.
I believe Paul talk to people that is not believe in resurrection but baptized the death.
More likely Paul say
If you do not believe resurrection why you baptized the death.
Paul is was not talking about baptism on behalf of the dead- this practice is wrong, its corresponding underlying belief is wrong as well and has nothing to do with resurrection. Because, for you to be baptized on behalf of a dead person, you must have thought that they are not saved and you being saved may somehow cause them to be saved if you are baptized on their behalf. Nothing to with resurrection at all.
Paul referenced the practice of baptizing for the dead to reinforce his teaching on resurrection. Therefore, the corresponding underlying belief around this practice was that the dead person who is saved or known saint, will resurrect and indwell me who is being baptized in their name Or their already resurrected spirit will indwell me and cause me to to walk as they did.
Paul referenced the practice of baptizing for the dead to reinforce his teaching on resurrection. Therefore, the corresponding underlying belief around this practice was that the dead person who is saved or known saint, will resurrect and indwell me who is being baptized in their name Or their already resurrected spirit will indwell me and cause me to to walk as they did.
1 cor 15:29 is not a command to baptized the death It is an argument.
For example
1 John 4:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
This verse is an argument
Command
Love your God
Argument
If you say Christian but not love your neighbor you are liar.
For example
1 John 4:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
This verse is an argument
Command
Love your God
Argument
If you say Christian but not love your neighbor you are liar.
Yes. And that's what it means "The Lord cometh with 10000 of his saints" or what Paul meant by:
2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.
2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.
13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.