Not By Works

[preacher4truth]

It absolutely does not.
Antinomianism? I preach grace not law.

Tell me about the person who has many works can explain the Gospel well and has never had a conversion experience (born from above) how do they fit into your works must accompany/prove salvation view.

Antinomianism is to preach lawlessness which is the antithesis of a person under grace.

By the way, aren’t you “undergrace” with a new moniker?

What you “preach” isn’t grace but antinomianism. In the past you were against evidence of conversion. That is a telltale, dangerous, and unbiblical stance. Do you still embrace that error?

Your latter scenario is non sequitur. You’ve drawn a caricature of a person having many works yet isn’t converted. That isn’t my caricature or scenario, it’s yours, you invented it so the burden of proof is on you. I don’t believe in such a person, but obviously you do.

Lastly, it’s not “my” works must accompany salvation view, it is God’s. Evidence of conversion is biblical.

 

[dcontroversal]

Who are we to decide? The Bible explicitly states in 1 Cor. 5 to clean out the old leaven. Why do this? If they don’t oust those who are living contrary to the word of God, this could harm that local church. Then in Matthew 18, the Christ explicitly lays the groundwork for how to handle ppl who act unruly. In both cases, reconciliation is to be strived for. But if the unruly member will not repent and come under authority of the church, oust them.

Without church discipline it will end up in ruin. So, we are to judge the works of the members of our local church.

I bet you are one of the first to point fingers right?? Thank God I do not go to your hypocritical church.....You that are without sin cast the first stone Pharisee!

 

[EleventhHour]

Antinomianism is to preach lawlessness which is the antithesis of a person under grace.

Yes I am undergrace.

I never promote lawlessness... of course grace is not lawlessness..... however...

Abiding and discipleship, walking in victory are not automatic responses but I know you think they are.... but they are not.

My illustration is valid... salvation is not by works therefore works cannot prove salvation.

 

[preacher4truth]

I bet you are one of the first to point fingers right?? Thank God I do not go to your hypocritical church.....You that are without sin cast the first stone Pharisee!

You're the only one throwing stones, calling names. I know this man personally, he is a loving brother, full of grace and humility. His church isn't hypocritical, yet you're implying it is. His wife received bad news today concerning her health. We are in prayer over them here. Do you have some more mud to sling? I'll bet you do and will wait to see it and watch those who like your response.

 

[EleventhHour]

In the past you were against evidence of conversion.

Evidence of conversion is not the issue, the issue is stating conversion has not occurred without proof.

See the difference.

 

[preacher4truth]

Evidence of conversion is not the issue, the issue is stating conversion has not occurred without proof.

See the difference.

It is the issue yet in the past you've denied its necessity. That is solemn to consider.

If conversion has taken place there will be evidence. There is no issue with stating conversion hasn't taken place if there is no evidence. In fact, it is biblical. There is no conversion without proof. Show us all with Scripture a person who was converted but had no evidence.

For the record 1 John is all about evidence. Or not.

 

[VCO]

It is the issue yet in the past you've denied its necessity. That is solemn to consider.

If conversion has taken place there will be evidence. There is no issue with stating conversion hasn't taken place if there is no evidence. In fact, it is biblical. There is no conversion without proof. Show us all with Scripture a person who was converted but had no evidence.

For the record 1 John is all about evidence. Or not.

I assume you are talking about Works, BUT WORKS are not valid proof. Mat 7:22 should PROVE THAT TO YOU!


Matthew 7:13-23 (HCSB)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! [THAT is a Reference to the INNER, PERSONAL, AGAPE LOVE RELATIONSHIP that ONLY comes when you are genuinely BORN AGAIN. THAT is kind of LOVE, is the LOVE HE poured into your Heart (human spirit), Rom. 5:5.]
Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’ [Why did HE call them Lawbreakers? Because they DID NOT HAVE THAT LOVE RELATIONSHIP, so they will be JUDGED BY THEIR WORKS, or DEEDS.]

How is it that you do not understand that ? ? ? It is not That you DO HIS COMMANDS, IT IS WHY YOU STRIVE TO DO THEM, that HE searches the Heart of a man for. HE SEARCHES Your Heart FOR THE MOTIVE. AND IF IT IS NOT THAT GODLY LOVE HE POURED into our Hearts, IT WILL BE REJECTED. It is either just Wood, Hay, and Stubble; OR it is FILTHY RAGS.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s AGAPE love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

That Agape Love is the SEED OF FAITH and it Produces the exact same kind of LOVE for GOD and the Brethren, a Self-Sacrificial LOVE.
Where on GOD's Green Earth, did you GET the Idea that it was WORKS ? ? ? It is GOD-given Agape Love! Without it, you will be judged by your DEEDS.

Romans 8:27 (HCSB)
27 And He who searches the hearts knows the Spirit’s mind-set, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

1 Chronicles 28:9 (NASB)
9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

1 Chronicles 29:17 (NRSV)
17 I know, my God, that you search the heart, and take pleasure in uprightness; in the uprightness of my heart I have freely offered all these things, and now I have seen your people, who are present here, offering freely and joyously to you.

Jeremiah 17:10 (NASB)
10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

Proverbs 20:27 (NCV)
27 The LORD looks deep inside people and searches through their thoughts.


HE LOOKS FOR THE MOTIVE!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I should also like to add that actively hunting for sinners is not what's called for here either. The church would have no members if that were the case. The last thing the church needs is a self appointed pointer...

Nowhere did I say the church should have someone actively hunting for sinners. I said that if a person offends you, you go to him ALONE. Or, as Paul wrote Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.[Galatians 6:1] The goal is to have a healthy church, a thriving church. And this can not be done w/o having to have church discipline at times. If you see someone doing something that a christian ought not do, you goal is to speak to them about it, not make a public spectacle out of it.

It boils down to the question Cain asked God, "Am I my brother's keeper?" Yes you are. And so am I. And so is the next person.

 

[14meatcc]

At ]sundry times and in divers manners God spake in the old time to our fathers by the Prophets: in these last days he hath spoken unto us by his Son,
2 Whom he hath made heir of all things, by whom also he made the [f]worlds,
3 Who being the brightness of the glory, and the engraved form of his ]person, and [i]bearing up all things by his mighty word: hath by himself purged our sins: and ]sitteth at the right hand of the Majesty in the highest places,
4 An

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I bet you are one of the first to point fingers right?? Thank God I do not go to your hypocritical church.....You that are without sin cast the first stone Pharisee!

Who sprinkled sawdust in your bloomers?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

You're the only one throwing stones, calling names. I know this man personally, he is a loving brother, full of grace and humility. His church isn't hypocritical, yet you're implying it is. His wife received bad news today concerning her health. We are in prayer over them here. Do you have some more mud to sling? I'll bet you do and will wait to see it and watch those who like your response.

Nowhere did I ever say I was the pharisee/finger pointer. I have never confronted anyone, but there were times I should have. I had a third cousin who was a preacher and was a habitual liar. He tore apart every church he took membership in. It took them a while to learn him. One morning I went to pick him up for church, and a girl's car(they were dating at the time) was parked right outside his front door. When I blew the horn, he never came to the door, even after asking me to pick him up the night before.

Getting back to the subject at hand. If we don't do church discipline, the church ends up looking just like the world. We are to judge each other. That is bible. That is not me twisting a verse, or verses, to fit my agenda. Oddly enough, you mentioned 1 John. I was reading through that letter last night. John was sure big on seeing evidence of conversion.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yes I am undergrace.

I never promote lawlessness... of course grace is not lawlessness..... however...

Abiding and discipleship, walking in victory are not automatic responses but I know you think they are.... but they are not.

My illustration is valid... salvation is not by works therefore works cannot prove salvation.

Faith w/o works is dead. That's the theme of the letter of James. And w/o faith 1) no one is saved, and 2) no one can please God. Works are proof of conversion, not the cause of it.

Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.[Matthew 5:16]

If we are saved, we have the Light within us that shows the world we have been chosen out of the world. This is proof of conversion by good works. In Matthew 25, what did the Christ say ppl will be judged by? Their amount of faith? No. How much grace was in their life? No. Works? Yahtzee!

Now, I am not promoting a works based salvation, but a saving faith produces good works. Which goes right back to Matthew 5:16.

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”[John 13:35]

Here is another example of how we can see evidence of conversion. By loving each other. And if we truly love one another, if we see another member sin, the most unloving thing to do is do nothing. And I have been guilty of this as well.

Then read through all five chapters of 1 John. He was a big believer in there being evidence of salvation in the life of the saved.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

You're the only one throwing stones, calling names. I know this man personally, he is a loving brother, full of grace and humility. His church isn't hypocritical, yet you're implying it is. His wife received bad news today concerning her health. We are in prayer over them here. Do you have some more mud to sling? I'll bet you do and will wait to see it and watch those who like your response.

He needs to learn proper grammar and put a comma between the words 'stone' and 'pharisee'. It should be "You that are without sin cast the first stone, Pharisee!"

It makes all the difference. Its like saying "Let's eat grandma" and "Let's eat, grandma!" All the difference in the world.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I assume you are talking about Works, BUT WORKS are not valid proof. Mat 7:22 should PROVE THAT TO YOU!


Matthew 7:13-23 (HCSB)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! [THAT is a Reference to the INNER, PERSONAL, AGAPE LOVE RELATIONSHIP that ONLY comes when you are genuinely BORN AGAIN. THAT is kind of LOVE, is the LOVE HE poured into your Heart (human spirit), Rom. 5:5.]
Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’ [Why did HE call them Lawbreakers? Because they DID NOT HAVE THAT LOVE RELATIONSHIP, so they will be JUDGED BY THEIR WORKS, or DEEDS.]

How is it that you do not understand that ? ? ? It is not That you DO HIS COMMANDS, IT IS WHY YOU STRIVE TO DO THEM, that HE searches the Heart of a man for. HE SEARCHES Your Heart FOR THE MOTIVE. AND IF IT IS NOT THAT GODLY LOVE HE POURED into our Hearts, IT WILL BE REJECTED. It is either just Wood, Hay, and Stubble; OR it is FILTHY RAGS.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s AGAPE love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

That Agape Love is the SEED OF FAITH and it Produces the exact same kind of LOVE for GOD and the Brethren, a Self-Sacrificial LOVE.
Where on GOD's Green Earth, did you GET the Idea that it was WORKS ? ? ? It is GOD-given Agape Love! Without it, you will be judged by your DEEDS.

Romans 8:27 (HCSB)
27 And He who searches the hearts knows the Spirit’s mind-set, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

1 Chronicles 28:9 (NASB)
9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

1 Chronicles 29:17 (NRSV)
17 I know, my God, that you search the heart, and take pleasure in uprightness; in the uprightness of my heart I have freely offered all these things, and now I have seen your people, who are present here, offering freely and joyously to you.

Jeremiah 17:10 (NASB)
10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

Proverbs 20:27 (NCV)
27 The LORD looks deep inside people and searches through their thoughts.


HE LOOKS FOR THE MOTIVE!

That which is on the inside will show itself on the outside.

 

[OneOfHis]

He needs to learn proper grammar and put a comma between the words 'stone' and 'pharisee'. It should be "You that are without sin cast the first stone, Pharisee!"

It makes all the difference. Its like saying "Let's eat grandma" and "Let's eat, grandma!" All the difference in the world.

You and p4t are the ones who seem to love lies.

He imputes meaning to others actions and words, you follow and cheerlead. He then claims others are teaming up on on him for encouraging someone who was siding with someone for saying God needs to see works to prove one is saved.


The thing is God sees his lies, you can't convince someone THEY meant something or said something THEY didn't mean.
P4T also did this in the thread he made about how long it takes to read the bible (i posted a link to it earlier.)


The majority of what you were giving the "winner" emote to were false accusations of the flesh paired with strawmen against Gods children.


"God doesn't need evidence, He knows who are His." was what started p4t's blind ranting and lies.


Elo said God needed proof, judges was then siding with elo but altered the point a bit and colored it. (though had posted what seemed to be implied agreement in the forum of out of context verses)

P4T then said judges got something right, I then said God doesnt need evidence.

If p4t wasnt a hypocrit and a defensive snowflake he wouldve also agreed with me. Instead he goes off on a day long crying session about how he has been falsely accused while falsely accusing others.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

You and p4t are the ones who seem to love lies.

He imputes meaning to others actions and words, you follow and cheerlead. He then claims others are teaming up on on him for encouraging someone who was siding with someone for saying God needs to see works to prove one is saved.


The thing is God sees his lies, you can't convince someone THEY meant something or said something THEY didn't mean.
P4T also did this in the thread he made about how long it takes to read the bible (i posted a link to it earlier.)


The majority of what you were giving the "winner" emote to were false accusations of the flesh paired with strawmen against Gods children.


"God doesn't need evidence, He knows who are His." was what started p4t's blind ranting and lies.


Elo said God needed proof, judges was then siding with elo but altered the point a bit and colored it. (though had posted what seemed to be implied agreement in the forum of out of context verses)

P4T then said judges got something right, I then said God doesnt need evidence.

If p4t wasnt a hypocrit and a defensive snowflake he wouldve also agreed with me. Instead he goes off on a day long crying session about how he has been falsely accused while falsely accusing others.

 

[EleventhHour]

Faith w/o works is dead. That's the theme of the letter of James. And w/o faith 1) no one is saved, and 2) no one can please God. Works are proof of conversion, not the cause of it.

Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.[Matthew 5:16]

If we are saved, we have the Light within us that shows the world we have been chosen out of the world. This is proof of conversion by good works. In Matthew 25, what did the Christ say ppl will be judged by? Their amount of faith? No. How much grace was in their life? No. Works? Yahtzee!

Now, I am not promoting a works based salvation, but a saving faith produces good works. Which goes right back to Matthew 5:16.

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”[John 13:35]

Here is another example of how we can see evidence of conversion. By loving each other. And if we truly love one another, if we see another member sin, the most unloving thing to do is do nothing. And I have been guilty of this as well.

Then read through all five chapters of 1 John. He was a big believer in there being evidence of salvation in the life of the saved.

Well then you must believe salvation can be lost if that is how you understand James.
John is contrasting the spiritual nature with the flesh nature.

 

[EleventhHour]

You and p4t are the ones who seem to love lies.

He imputes meaning to others actions and words, you follow and cheerlead. He then claims others are teaming up on on him for encouraging someone who was siding with someone for saying God needs to see works to prove one is saved.


The thing is God sees his lies, you can't convince someone THEY meant something or said something THEY didn't mean.
P4T also did this in the thread he made about how long it takes to read the bible (i posted a link to it earlier.)


The majority of what you were giving the "winner" emote to were false accusations of the flesh paired with strawmen against Gods children.


"God doesn't need evidence, He knows who are His." was what started p4t's blind ranting and lies.


Elo said God needed proof, judges was then siding with elo but altered the point a bit and colored it. (though had posted what seemed to be implied agreement in the forum of out of context verses)

P4T then said judges got something right, I then said God doesnt need evidence.

If p4t wasnt a hypocrit and a defensive snowflake he wouldve also agreed with me. Instead he goes off on a day long crying session about how he has been falsely accused while falsely accusing others.

You are captured the dialogue correctly between @Judges1318 and @Elihoenai correctly.

And no one who believes salvation is a gift apart from any all works should agree with those two....when it comes to the doctrines of salvation

 

[EleventhHour]

That which is on the inside will show itself on the outside.

How is what is spiritual discernible by human eyes.

 

[EleventhHour]

It is the issue yet in the past you've denied its necessity. That is solemn to consider.

If conversion has taken place there will be evidence. There is no issue with stating conversion hasn't taken place if there is no evidence. In fact, it is biblical. There is no conversion without proof. Show us all with Scripture a person who was converted but had no evidence.

For the record 1 John is all about evidence. Or not.

Scripture is clear we are expected to manifest outwardly what God has accomplished inwardly..... to support our testimony and to lead others to knowledge of Christ.

Evidence certainly serves an important purpose for the non believing world of course.

Most believers under good instruction are faithful to the faith, the gift of salvation does not come with strings attached...there is no promise made to God in return for the gift...that would be quid pro quo and that is not scriptural.

Yet when you state proof then I automatically think well what it the metric for that proof and who is given the instructions on that metric and the ability to make such a judgement.

Also I know you see one nature that is being perfected....that is not what John is speaking to... John is contrasting the two natures within the believer.

As well I still think @Judges1318 was not speaking about evidence outward but to oneself which is error for sure.... are you in agreement that our works prove to oneself we are saved?