Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

[bojack]

Tradition says that both Peter and Paul died in Rome. Paul by beheading, and Peter by upside down crucifixion.

By the way, since this guy mentions this topic, there is a myth by conspiracy theorists that is being inferred here.

These guys think that Simon Magus of Acts 8 is the real first pope. They believe that Simon Magus somehow got confused with Simon Peter.

The folks who claim this are many, including the founder of the Sabbatarian cult I belonged to. It was also taught by Michael Servetus, an anti-Trinitarian heretic.

In their mind, Simon Magus basically started the Roman Catholic Church, which continued in one continuous heretical line from the apostolic age to the current age. It is totally bogus. The true church had five bishops, in five major areas. The Roman bishop eventually claimed ecclesiastical superiority over time.

The RC Church is wrong in its' claims, because they ignore this evolution of the Roman Catholic Church. So is the claim of conspiracy theorists who claim Simon Magus started the Roman Catholic Church. This claim is based on legends by heretics with vivid imaginations.

I wouldn't be surprised if Alexander Hislop's book Two Babylons talks about Simon Magus, as it is the same type of hogwash he specialized in. And, tons of cults claim the same things

Hi UWC , what do you think about the claim that a RCC Franciscan archeologist Bagatti found Simon bar Jonah's bone box in 1953 , on the Mt of Olives in a Jerusalem ancient graveyard 1953 ? And that he reported to PiousXII ? Bagatti wrote a book in 1958 in italian.. Simon Magus was reported/recorded being in Rome ..

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Foundation of the church ha?

Earlier in history, anyone against the trinity was a heretic and heretics were rounded up and persecuted for what they did not believe. Is this the foundation you are proud to be associated with?

Now come on, you aren't going to be persecuted. But the truine nature of our one God is an integral part of Christian belief. There are some main points which cannot be compromised. And yes deviation from that position is a heresy. Without it we are wandering into cult territory.

 

[Absolutely]

You can throw all the ambiguous verses you like, but at the end of the day, Jesus admitted he has a God. This is a clear direct statement. But you trinitarians continuously refuse to accept the direct explicit statements Jesus made.

It is you trinitarians who go against what Jesus said. Going by the evidence, Jesus himself admits he has a God.

And by the way, if you think you can use the verse in John 20.28 where Thomas says "My Lord and my God" to prove Jesus is God, let us use the same line of reasoning in the following situation, what if a parent who has a newborn child, child is sitting down and falls of the chair, and the parent rushes to the child and happens to say "My God My God" does that mean the parent was addressing her child as God? Of course not.

Jesus admitted he has a God. Why can you not accept this? In John 20.17, What part of " I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" is so difficult to comprehend?

How can Jesus be God when Jesus himself admitted he has a God? This is the part that you guys are not accepting. Jesus admitted he has a God.

God is not in your dimension,mind,or box.

You have yet to make ANY case against the trinity

 

[Alertandawake]

God is not in your dimension,mind,or box.

You have yet to make ANY case against the trinity

Curious, but what part of "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" are you not able to understand?

When Jesus is praying in the garden of Gethsemane

Matt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matt 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

So in verses 26.39 and 26.42 who did Jesus pray to? Who did Jesus do the will of? Did Jesus do the will of Jesus? Or did Jesus do the will of his father?

Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So according to Jesus, the day and hour concerned, only the Father knows. Since only the Father knows, no one else knows the day and hour concerned. There is no mention in Matt 24:36 that Jesus knows the day and hour concerned. Only The Father knows. So who is the Father? The only true God according to Jesus in John 17.1-3 when read in context.

Now also in that same verse of John 17.3, Jesus himself admitted he was sent, by the father.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

So in the above verse, did Jesus say the servant is equal to the master? No he did not. Did Jesus say the one who is sent is equal to the one that sent him? No he did not.

So according to Jesus who is the greater?

In Matt 28:18 there is a reference to Jesus saying "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

In the verse above, who gave him the authority? The one who gave him authority is the one in a position of authority to do so. Who was the one in a position of authority to give Jesus said authority in the first place?

 

[Noose]

Now come on, you aren't going to be persecuted. But the truine nature of our one God is an integral part of Christian belief. There are some main points which cannot be compromised. And yes deviation from that position is a heresy. Without it we are wandering into cult territory.

I'm asking you, are you proud of this foundation; that heretics were rounded up and killed? Is that how truth operates?

I don't mind wandering into cult territory as long as the concepts make sense to me.

 

[Noose]

If you're talking about the RCC , they have it all wrong imo .. Peter was never in Rome and I think Simon the sorcerer was ..

Of course everybody else is wrong except you. The fact of the matter is, early trinity believers persecuted others.

 

[bojack]

Of course everybody else is wrong except you. The fact of the matter is, early trinity believers persecuted others.

I was not brought up in any religion and was at least agnostic if not Atheist .. I made fun of Christians until Jesus Himself about knocked me down one day and I was so overwhelmed I could not hardly breath .. I don't read well at all so I'm not full of other men's ideas .. I can change my mind when proven wrong and have with apology and a thank you .. One thing I'm good at imo is I believe every word of the bible and shut no doors to any of it no matter how improbable it seems in the natural .. There's lots of people like that .. In due time I have experienced Jesus perform many miracles and gifts of the Spirit .. The only God I know is Jesus and if the Father is like Jesus then He's God too ..

 

[Noose]

I was not brought up in any religion and was at least agnostic if not Atheist .. I made fun of Christians until Jesus Himself about knocked me down one day and I was so overwhelmed I could not hardly breath .. I don't read well at all so I'm not full of other men's ideas .. I can change my mind when proven wrong and have with apology and a thank you .. One thing I'm good at imo is I believe every word of the bible and shut no doors to any of it no matter how improbable it seems in the natural .. There's lots of people like that .. In due time I have experienced Jesus perform many miracles and gifts of the Spirit .. The only God I know is Jesus and if the Father is like Jesus then He's God too ..

If you believe every word in the bible then you should also believe this:

John 17:3
New International Version
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

New Living Translation
And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

English Standard Version
And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Berean Study Bible
Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Berean Literal Bible
Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

New American Standard Bible
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

New King James Version
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

King James Bible
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Christian Standard Bible
This is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and the one you have sent--Jesus Christ.

Contemporary English Version
Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.

Good News Translation
And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and the One You have sent--Jesus Christ.

 

[bojack]

If you believe every word in the bible then you should also believe this:

John 17:3
New International Version
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

New Living Translation
And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

English Standard Version
And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Berean Study Bible
Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Berean Literal Bible
Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

New American Standard Bible
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

New King James Version
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

King James Bible
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Christian Standard Bible
This is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and the one you have sent--Jesus Christ.

Contemporary English Version
Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent.

Good News Translation
And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and the One You have sent--Jesus Christ.

Why would I not believe it .. God the Father sent His Son, same one God, but in terms I can relate to as a man .. Did you ever notice what all Jesus had to put up with, time after time with patience and perfect love in the midst of all the persecution .. You're stuck on human understanding .. Why do you shut your door instead of leaving room for revelation from above ?

 

[Noose]

Why would I not believe it .. God the Father sent His Son, same one God, but in terms I can relate to as a man .. Did you ever notice what all Jesus had to put up with, time after time with patience and perfect love in the midst of all the persecution .. You're stuck on human understanding .. Why do you shut your door instead of leaving room for revelation from above ?

What does the statement 'only true God' mean? Does it mean there are other true gods?

 

[bojack]

What does the statement 'only true God' mean? Does it mean there are other true gods?

It means God , the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost ..

 

[Noose]

It means God , the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost ..

It is Jesus speaking and he is saying that the Father is the 'only true God'. Only means there's no other true God.
Now i have confirmed that you are not sincere when you say you believe every word in the bible.

 

[bojack]

It is Jesus speaking and he is saying that the Father is the 'only true God'. Only means there's no other true God.
Now i have confirmed that you are not sincere when you say you believe every word in the bible.

Bwahahaha .. Jesus is correct and He is God ..

 

[Alertandawake]

In the Greek, "only true God" translates into "monos alethinos theos". Now another English word for "monos" instead of only is alone. You can confirm this on Studybible info using the strongs concordance, G3441

 

[Noose]

Bwahahaha .. Jesus is correct and He is God ..

So is he not a true God because Jesus said the Father is the ONLY true God,

 

[Alertandawake]

I will help make this question easier for you trinitarians, I will make it multiple choice

Now according to Jesus, the Father is the only true God. So who was Jesus referring to as the only true God?

A. The Father
B. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

There is only one correct answer, which is it? A or B?

So do you trinitarians agree with what Jesus said or do you reject what Jesus said? Because how you answer, you will either agree with what Jesus said or go against him? You cannot have it both ways.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I'm asking you, are you proud of this foundation; that heretics were rounded up and killed? Is that how truth operates?

I don't mind wandering into cult territory as long as the concepts make sense to me.

Noose, no I'm not proud of people being killed. Nor do I wish that sort of thing to be repeated. What you are talking about is hundreds of years after the beginning of the church. Regarding the "Trinity" The central tradition of the Church was strong and clear from the time of the apostles.

If you don't mind adopting cult theories, you're on your own. I pray that The Lord will guide you into truth. But I give up trying to convince you with words.

 

[Noose]

Noose, no I'm not proud of people being killed. Nor do I wish that sort of thing to be repeated. What you are talking about is hundreds of years after the beginning of the church. Regarding the "Trinity" The central tradition of the Church was strong and clear from the time of the apostles.

If you don't mind adopting cult theories, you're on your own. I pray that The Lord will guide you into truth. But I give up trying to convince you with words.

My point is; anything that is associated with violence can not be true because it is not from God.

Now, did God really reveal this trinity to those that went around persecuting others because they did not believe in trinity?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

My point is; anything that is associated with violence can not be true because it is not from God.

Now, did God really reveal this trinity to those that went around persecuting others because they did not believe in trinity?

This is a psychological deflection tactic. If you can portray what you don't want to believe as coming from "bad people" you can give yourself an excuse to dismiss it.

If you don't think God can be associated with violence you might be in for a shock. The day of his vengeance isn't going to be pretty.
God has revealed himself to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It's not a man-made idea.

 

[Noose]

This is a psychological deflection tactic. If you can portray what you don't want to believe as coming from "bad people" you can give yourself an excuse to dismiss it.

If you don't think God can be associated with violence you might be in for a shock. The day of his vengeance isn't going to be pretty.
God has revealed himself to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It's not a man-made idea.

Not only is it associated with violence, it is the inherent confusion whereas God is not the author of confusion.

There's only one way to salvation and if a child is saved without ever knowing this kind of God's measure (3 in 1), i believe i can also be saved just like a child without ever knowing or believing such.