The bible clearly contradicts your opinion. God is the only one who can control mankind's tongue and does so as evidence when someone is indwelt with His Spirit. Clearly His choice to use that method.
Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today
- Thread starter Dave-L
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No, the physical tongue is not replaced by another one. The words of the tongue reflect the heart. God gives the man a new heart.
However, my point is this...if God gives anything, it is the ability to understand and speak in another human language. Therefore using the word "tongue" is anachronistic.
If they want to claim God gives man the ability to speak in another human language, that is more credible.
And, I would acknowledge that true, orthodox, Trinity-believing Christians can have a different opinion on this issue.
Note sure what oneness represents? Oneness of what or who. Two working together?
The Baptism of the Lord Himself is the introduction of the new priesthood after the manner of Melchizedek a theophany. All the nations of the world had come under the promise in Joel as a reflection of Psalm 110. A kingdom of priests that prophesy of the grace of the gospel. men and woman alike, Jew and Gentile alike .
Psalm 110:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
The lord striking through the hearts kings represents the time of reformation. The day of his wrath had come removing kings in Israel so that men might walk by faith, the unseen .No visual representation.
Hebrews 5:6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
It was a witness of God working in the Son. Not viewed by man.
He heard the voice and was given a vision from the Father. Salvation is the work of two.
No Father, no Son .
No Son, no Father
Know the Father, know the Son.
Jesus answered, “Let it be this way for now. We should do whatever God says is right.” Then John agreed. So Jesus was baptized. As soon as he came up out of the water, the sky opened, and he saw God’s Spirit coming down on him like a dove. A voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, the one I love. I am very pleased with him.” Mathew 3:15-17
Those with him did not see the vision or hear the voice. It was hid from mankind to serve a purpose. .
In another prophetic vision another manner of prophecy the voice of God was given to hear by the witness of men . In that parable we can see Peter again walking by sight as a example what not to do. like in John 21 when Peter started a oral tradition saying Jesus said John would not die. Jesus rebuked him and called him a lair. Peter was looking to make the corrupted flesh into eternal .Walking by sight after the temporal. Peter learned how to walk by faith the same as most the hard way. His way is easy when we are yoked with Him.
Matthew 17:1-8 King James Version (KJV) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Again in order to teach them how to walk by faith he used parables . When they opened their eyes .They knew they had not mixed faith in what they saw or heard. . Moses and Elias represent all things written in the law and prophets as one perfect law . (sola scriptura the reforming authority)
Can't build tabernacles to hold unseen spirits of truth. Truth protects its own as a law not subject to change by the things of men, the temporal
Jesus as seen below refused to stand in the Holy place of the Father not seen . The promised demonstration had not as of yet been performed. He was powerless. and reserved it for another time period to reveal he had conquered death by the work of the two by the spirit of holiness
Matthew 17:1-8 King James Version (KJV)And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Ok then, if you are saying my argument is with the word of God, does salvation happen if one is not baptized in Jesus' name? Please know you are not the only one here who has studied this topic thoroughly and suggest you are the only one obeying the word of God is opinionated. I ask you again, is one baptized not in the name of Jesus saved? y or N ?
The Word answers that question:
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" Col 2:9-13
Again:
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:" Rom 6:4-8
love how you are not willing to be direct. I will attempt to ask you one more time.
If a person is not Baptized in Jesus' name are they saved yes or no? If they follow Romans Chapter 10:9-10
and not baptized in Jesus name are they saved
Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart, man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.
By the way, why do Pentecostals/charismatic refer to those gifts as "tongues"?
It's plain the meaning is language, and not "tongues". God doesn't give the person a new tongues.
I guess it's because of faulty translations..and I think if some future bible translation translated it properly as "languages" or "dialects" the charismatic/Pentecostal community would go hog wild over it
That might clarify some issues though. Because the Greek infers languages or dialects.
The new tongues (prophecy) that preaches the gospel is a inward sign someone has believed. The new tongue "the gospel" it can drive out demons as lying spirits and bring new life to one previously dead in their trespasses and sin .
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Your view is incoherent. There is no need for a separate gift of the Holy Spirit to interpret "the gospel".
I would agree not if it is of one own self after the imaginations of a faithless heart .Why would they say we have feely received it from the hand of God when they could self edify their own flesh and call it a wonderment revealed.
Believers start out with "no faith" as it is written . (None not a little). Called a froward nation that walks by sight .Those who wrestle against flesh and blood.
Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith
Holding on to a false hope as if the kingdom of God does come by looking at the corrupted rudiments of this world. where men lord it over the faith of others is not where we get our understanding. .
When converted by the hearing of faith, believers hear that work working in them. . they understand it is not of them. believing it came from God and are moved to perform it. as it is written
They receive the gift of interpretation of the Holy Spirit, who alone does the teaching, comforting and bringing it to our memories the things he has taught us.
Without parable the signified tongue of God, Christ unseen, spoke not.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
There's a problem with your view: Paul clearly explains that individual gifts are not given to all believers:
1 Cor. 12:27-30 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
Paul employs a series of rhetorical questions, the implied answer to all of which is "No." Therefore, not every believer is "gifted" with interpretation of tongues. If the tongue is the gospel, how is it that some believers, members of Christ's body, cannot rightly interpret the gospel? That is self contradictory, proving your position wrong.
It would seem you are still trying to divide what God calls one.
We should look at it according to the time period . Many things were different. What was happening can affect the understanding. The time is the time of reformation. Coming from a government of kings where men lorded it over the faith, belief of others and the word of God restored it to period (Judges) When God was King and there was no outward representation of the eternal Spirit of God. Believers walked by the faith as it is written.
God using the gentile to speak to the whole world. Prophets as prophesied in Joel. Men and woman from all the nations with a new tongue the gospel . A great time of tribulation for the faithless Jew that refused to get under all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura ) A time of leaping for the believing Jewish woman and gentiles. It is the sign of tongues. God bringing the gospel in other languages a new tongue, as prophecy .Yet they still believed not. There hearts remained hard showing they were ignorant of spiritual gifts.
Everything was being turned upside down .Chapter 11 sets up the new ceremonial laws that were used to represent the new reformed order. The gifts have become spiritual as not seen and the warning was needed. the first teaching of the gifts. .No one was familiar with them .They speak of a new creation. Seeing it is where Satan can get his foothold .Paul said; I would not have you ignorant as those who fall backward. The introduction to the teaching.
1 Corinthians 12 King James Version (KJV) Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Can't divide the work of God's prophecy from the power of God prophesying declaring the Word. Remember we plant the incorruptible seed he causes life to grow..
Christians as did the apostles have that treasure in theses bodies of death but we would never say it was of us. Like the many in Mathew 7 called worker of iniquity
Different kinds of spiritual unseen gifts but that does not divide the gift. . "the hearing of the gospel God's word as one work" ..It is a work of God that he works in us to both will and perform His good pleasure.Nothing gets attributed to the flesh .Christ said His flesh profits for zero.
An apostle is a sent one. like the body as part of the whole that gift cannot work without the others in order to accomplish the goal of
God giving ears to hear. Its why first a willing heart to bring the gospel of prophecy .it does the teaching so we can seek his approval as informed in 2 Tim 2:15)
What is the apostle sent with? There are diversities of operations Some for within the church and other holding the gospel to the world .
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.1 Corinthians 12:29-31
A more excellent way. No need for signs introducing the next chapter. The finished way the more excellent way when the perfect had come the best gift . In that way it would impossible to deceive the elect . The Holy Spirit knew right around the corner he would reveal his last revelation using John the last prophet to brig a written witness. And sealed up the book of prophecy, the tongue of God forever and ever.
A great section of scripture below that warns the believer before hand of the pending great tribulation coming .Signaled by Acts 2.it brought cagous and confusion to the faithless the Jewish community . It peached joy to the born again gentile and Jewish woman we who were forbidden for mingling with the gentile or men during a the ceremonies.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Mathew 24: 21-25
The ending of cannon was the spark of the "great tribulation" .Its smoke( the last days)is still rising until death the letter of the law is cast into the fiery judgement never to rise and condemn by corruption leading to death another whole creation..
A person is not saved because someone else said the words. . . "in the name of Father Son and the Holy Spirit" .They are just words as the witness of men . They can be used in ceremonies but shadows have no substance by which we could beleive .
The kingdom does not come by observation as the things of men seen. the temporal (the witness of men) .Our confession is the work of God working with us .Our Emanuel
Not our confession, apart from the eternal Spirit of working in us with us to both will and do his good pleasure. We are to believe without murmuring
I thought my response answered your question. I used the Word itself to prove my point.
Jesus is the one who was crucified for us. So of course I believe the only acceptable way to perform water baptism is in the name of Jesus. And, yes, being "buried" with Jesus is a requirement of salvation. This fact is clearly documented in God’s Word.
We are told that all of mankind will be judged by what exists in the Word. To submit to water baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is to follow a man-made tradition that began 300 after the apostolic era. Furthermore scripture is totally void of its usage. On the other hand water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is firmly established within the pages of the bible. (Acts 2:38, 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6, 22:16)
The choice to obey or refuse to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is something all must prayerfully consider.
The biblical record shows time and again that God expects nothing but absolute obedience to His commands. (Num 3:4, Ex 4:24, 30:20, 2 Sam 6:6-7) Whether one totally understands why something is necessary or not is irrelevant, God always has a purpose for designing things as He does.
What we do in the natural realm affects the spiritual realm. This truth is reflected in the following scriptures:
The following verse DOES NOT SAY a baptized person is buried with the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It says they are buried with Him. Whom? The Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Again, the following verse DOES NOT SAY for as many of you as have been baptized into the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It says baptized into Christ.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Yet again, the following verse DOES NOT SAY so many of us as were baptized into the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost were baptized into their deaths. It says that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into HIS DEATH.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
As for Romans Chapter 10, one can see Paul's comments are consistent with one's need to comply with the initial instructions given at Pentecost. This is reflected in the record of Paul's own conversion as directed by Ananias. He was told to call on the name of Jesus in his water baptism. (Acts 22: 16)
Rom 10:9-13
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Paul goes on to instruct how one does this. His words convey Peter's message at Pentecost:
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
All who believe on Jesus and call upon His name shall be saved:
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
So you are saying those who are baptized in the " name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" and not in the name of Jesus, their baptism is null and void. This is your understanding of the scriptures you used. You are eliciting the word of God.
Both are valid for baptism for one who is already saved. You do not see in the Book of Acts how the Holy Spirit fell on those who were not water baptized in the house Cornelious? Or how those who were water baptized ( John's baptism) received the empowering of the Holy Spirit after Paul laid his hands on them? Salvation is by Grace through faith, baptism is the obedience of the one who is already saved. That is what Roman chapter 6 shows and states.
You make baptism or the acts of it for salvation when faith in Christ is the motivation and obedience of one who is saved already.
The later scriptures you use testify that Christ is the only way of salvation. You need to do a word study in the Greek and Hebrew
- Baptism, Baptized, baptizing
- John 1 and chapter 14
- upon, and in
- water & Spirit
- salvation, confession, and belief
Baptism is required for the Believer who is already saved as the Acts of Obedience to Christ and public Identification as a Follower of the Lord Jesus.
If both were valid both would be witnessed in the Word.
I said water baptism is a required component of salvation. After the Gentiles were filled with the Holy Ghost Peter commanded they be water baptized in Jesus' name as well.
These disciples did not receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit until they were re-baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:3-6)
I agree that by God's grace salvation was made available through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. If not for Jesus' sacrifice none could be saved. Where we differ is how mankind attains that salvation.
May God Bless.
Gal 3:3 Are G2075 ye so G3779 foolish? G453 having begun G1728 in the Spirit, G4151 are ye now G3568 made perfect G2005 by the flesh? G4561
If one could just see what is said here. The baptism of Holy Spirit is being whelmed to the point of the Spirit or Holy Spirit greater than our human nature. The giftings are for our benefit as to tongues and or interpretation, and then for others.
We become Spirit, being recreated in His image and moving through His anointing. We can do nothing without Him.
Then being Spirit....we have a spiritual language. Just this simple.
If one could just see what is said here. The baptism of Holy Spirit is being whelmed to the point of the Spirit or Holy Spirit greater than our human nature. The giftings are for our benefit as to tongues and or interpretation, and then for others.
We become Spirit, being recreated in His image and moving through His anointing. We can do nothing without Him.
Then being Spirit....we have a spiritual language. Just this simple.