Eternal Hell, Annihilationism, or Universalism?

GdaxBbb · Mar 8, 2020

Reading most recently that majority of the early church fathers were split down the middle between Eternal Hell or Universalism, and some for Annihilationism.

The Unversalism / Annihilationism argument is basically forever and ever / everlasting being mis categorized in the greek as meaning of Ages of Ages, a temporary time period for both words, and no concept of Eternal Hell ever mentioned in the OT.

My own logical reasoning has been.

1. God needs nothing
2. He knows everything / the future / pre-knowledge
3. He is loving and just
4. The concept of Eternal Conscious Hell is non existent in the OT, just destruction / unconsciousness / death.

Yet not needing anything, knowing majority of his creation would go to everlasting hell, he decided to create it anyway to have fellowship with a few which he never really needed, somehow based out of pure love? Even a completely fallen broken person wouldn't make a decision especially based on pre-knowledge, knowing even one of your children would go to eternal punishment. Majority would choose to forgo all of creation, especially if they have no need for it....

Lastly, how do we reconcile Eternal Hell with countless deaths of innocent children? And sorry the made up doctrine of the "Age of Accountability" doesn't suffice. Nor can we reconcile OT passages of complete and total genocide of other peoples, just because they were born on the wrong side of the border, lineage....

Annihilationism fits with the verses about hell being thrown in the lake of fire, but even then still seems a bit unjust unloving, basically god created a bunch of people knowing majority of them would suffer on this earth, and then temporarily in hell hundreds thousands of years so a few can be saved. Then it's ok because I will return them to a state of non existence still seems like cruel punishment, but palatable logically.

Universalism, everyone gets saved at the end. No it doesn't make preaching the gospel useless. It's you either want a first class ticket to your destination with 0 delays to heaven, or do you want to get lost and take the long horrendous way of maybe hundreds, thousands of years in hell, until you are finally refined and workout your issues to accept Jesus? Logically speaking the most in line with Gods nature of ultimate love and sacrifice, where even Satan himself reconciles with God through his ultimate grace and love.

Eternal Hell, I guess eternal hell can also make sense logical sense with God's nature with an aspect of Annihilationism, as in physically their bodies are tormented forever, but their consciousness is destroyed.

Has anybody researched the three positions in depth? By this I mean actually researched all 3 positions and came to a conclusion, not long held beliefs and providing the typical bible verses to support those beliefs in either of the 3.

Ahwatukee · Mar 8, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

Technically, to be annihilated forever and ever would be grammatically incorrect, since a person would cease to exist at the moment of their annihilation. The reference to forever and ever, carries the idea of conscious eternal existence. It is the same with the expression of "everlasting fire" the focus of which is referring to the state of those who are in the fire, which is everlasting.

The word "aion" translated as forever can mean an age, a cycle of time, or having no beginning or ending. It is the context that will identifies the meaning. For example:

"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!"

In the scripture above, the angel swears by Him who lives forever and ever, which is without a doubt referring to God. Therefore, since we know that God has no beginning or ending, i.e. eternal, then the word "aion" must be interpreted to Him who has no beginning and no ending. That is unless of course you believe that God only lives for an age or cycle of time.

You left out Righteous and Holy. God's grace and love are only in operation while the person is alive. The individual that dies in their sins, God's full wrath will be upon them and they will be held accountable for ever idle word they ever spoke and their will be no grace or mercy mixed in. Now is the time of salvation, while we are still alive. Once a person dies in their sins, their record is sealed.

Well, did you ever hear of the new testament? There are plenty of places in the NT which are quite clear that the punishment for those who die their sins will suffer eternal existing punishment.

Taking into account all related scriptures, life and death are both states of existence based on ones state of being with God.

Life = eternal conscious existence in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God

Death = eternal conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire

Death does not mean cessation of existence. This definition has been applied to this word because expositors have taken the translated word "destroy" and made it annihilation and that without considering the Greek word apollumi, apoleia and olethros, from which it is derived. Death is a state of external existence, just as life is. Consider the following:

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

In the verse above, the word "aionios" which is an adjective of "aion" is used describing the eternal state of the wicked and the righteous. Therefore, the word aionios must carry the same meaning for both the wicked and the righteous. To be clear, the same word cannot mean never ending life for the righteous and then annihilation for the wicked. Both must have the same meaning. That said, if you apply the word to mean annihilation to the wicked, then you must apply the same meaning for the righteous. The truth is that, since we know that eternal life for the righteous means never-ending conscious existence, then the wicked going away into eternal punishment means never-ending conscious punishment.

Your error above, is that you are leaving out that little thing called freewill. I could go back further than you and say that God knowing that Satan and his angels were going to rebel against Him, that He could have cast them all in the lake of fire right then and there so that Eve's temptation would never have taken place. And just fyi, God is the One who foreknew and predestined those whom He chose to save and whose names were written in the book of life before the world began. And His choosing is not based on anything that we would do, but by His own Sovereign choice.

" The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come."

The scripture above in part tells us two things

1). That there were people throughout all of history whose names were not written in the book of life before the world began

2). That there were names of people throughout all of history whose names were written in the book of life

There were names that were not written and names that were written and it all took place before the world began. Those whose names that were not written, God will never draw them to His Son, because He has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and He hardens whomever He wants to harden. Is that unfair? No! Why? Because everyone who comes into the world is condemned. Everyone, even those who are saved, deserve God's wrath and judgment. But God in His great love and mercy provided a plan of salvation to save those whom He chose, which comes through faith in His Son, who tasted death for all of those whom God foreknew and predestined to be saved. Since everyone is a sinner and worthy of death, then God is not being unfair by choosing to save some.

Yes, the age of accountability does suffice. And since not one sparrow falls to the ground without God, I'm sure that He knew and knows about each and every child throughout all of history who were going to die.

Hades is personified, i.e. there is an actual being representing Hades. It is this being along with the personification of death who will be thrown into the lake of fire. There is no scripture, nor do any of the Greek words translated as destroy or perish, which means annihilation. The words previously mentioned rather mean "to be completely cut off, complete loss of well being, eternal ruination."

You are very mistaken and unlearned. If Universalism was true, the scripture below would could not be true:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Again, the word "apoleia" translated as "destruction" is used in the scripture above. And here is the definition of that word, particularly what is highlighted in red:

/apṓleia ("destruction") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being

In the scripture above, Jesus is saying that throughout all of history, many enter thru the gate that leads, not to annihilation, but to complete loss of eternal well being. in opposition, there will be few throughout all of history who enter through the narrow gate. This would completely do away with the idea that everyone is saved in the end. Only those who believe in Christ will inherit eternal life. Those who do not believe and die in their sins, will be judged and eternally separated from God in the lake of fire.

Adstar · Mar 8, 2020

People who disagree with the concept of an eternal lake of fire will always be tempted by the false doctrines of annihilationism or universalism..

But the Bible is clear if one will only trust in the Word of God and trust that He knows what He is doing..

The eternal lake of fire is the eternal lake of fire and those who are cast into it shall be in torment for ever and ever.. A persons agreement or disagreement with that reality does not change that reality..

garee · Mar 8, 2020

Technically to violate the letter of the law "death" It is the kind of law that shows that in dying a person will annihilated forever and ever never to rise to new life. Corrupted flesh and blood will not enter the the new heavens and earth .

As sons of God what we will be is not known. But fallen mankind's lifeless bodies will return to the clay of the field and there temporal spirits that were under the letter of the law, they return the father of all spirit life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

On the last day the promise of a new body will be given to the born again believer that do have the Spirit of Christ and in the same twinkling of the eye "death" as to the letter of the law and all the suffering it brought will be cast into the judgment fire of God. Never to rise and condemn another whole creation. .

Hell is defined as a living suffering leading toward death, unto death. Not dead . . .lifeless, spiritless.

In that way it was not flesh and blood or bones that were cast but the letter of the law the source of suffering living in a body of death. You could say the wrath of God being reveled from heaven. A dying suffering creation

Death as the source of hell . . . suffering. You could say; "death as hell" I believe.

The second or final. . . end of suffering.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I think the doctrine hell begins in Genesis 4. When Cain, a fool. . said the suffering was more than he could bear.Thinking he had some bargaining power with a God who he did not believe and remained faithless throughout his life..

666 the number of non-redeemed mankind, natural man .The mark of Cain with no sabbath yoke to make the load lighter.He looked over his shoulder for death all the days of his life with no relief. Like Jonas three days in the belly of hell .But Jonas had relief and was strengthened to finish it. The father heard his cry just as hears us in our anxieties.

GdaxBbb · Mar 8, 2020

@Ahwatukee it's the same logical arguments free will or not god foreknew majority of all his creation angels included would go to everlasting hell, needs nothing but decided what they hey let's create things, because I have no need for them.

And the OT and NT have a lot to do with doctrine, nowhere else in the Bible do you go from 0 foreshadowing or mention of a core doctrine in the bible without it existing in both Old and New.

Sorry you can't cop out of your position with completely non biblical non sensical "Age of Accountability" you have to accept your position fully, that aborted fetuses, and the genocide of children are all in Eternal Hell today.

I fully accept your answer, just accept it to its full logical conclusion, billions upon billions who never had a choice are in everlasting conscious punishment.

John146 · Mar 8, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

First off, they’re children not fetuses. Second, whose sin are they being held responsible? Are we to be damned to hell for someone else’s sin, or our own sins?

KJV1611 · Mar 8, 2020

John146 said:

2Sa 12:23 (KJV) But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

David said he was going to where is dead son was.

Runningman · Mar 8, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

“My heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; my flesh also will rest in hope. For you will not leave my soul in Sheol….in your presence is fullness of joy, at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.” Psalm 16:11

“While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” 2 Samuel 12: 22-23

According to these verses, David believed he was going to heaven after death and that his child would be in heaven when he died, too. I don't think he was wrong.

EleventhHour · Mar 8, 2020

The word annihilate was not coined until 1520s

"reduce to nothing," from Medieval Latin annihilatus, past participle of annihilare "reduce to nothing," from Latin ad "to" (see ad-) + nihil "nothing" (see nil). Related: Annihilated; annihilating.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/annihilate

The core concept is "Nihilism"

To create from nothing and reduce to nothing which only God can do.... "ex nihilo"

To utterly destroy is not to annihilate.
There is no such concept of "annihilate" in scripture with regards to life after death.

GdaxBbb · Mar 8, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Yes true matter can’t be destroyed, was speaking in the general sense of being reduced to the state before consciousness, as I’m assuming most view the concept of annihilationism.

GdaxBbb · Mar 8, 2020

Runningman said:

Just because David believed something doesn’t mean you have the whole doctrine of age of accountability. And a pretty weak verse to support it.

With this same logic we can disprove everlasting hell because Jews didn’t believe in it.....

EleventhHour · Mar 8, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

I am not sure what you mean here?

GdaxBbb · Mar 8, 2020

garee said:

Technically to violate the letter of the law "death" It is the kind of law that shows that in dying a person will annihilated forever and ever never to rise to new life. Corrupted flesh and blood will not enter the the new heavens and earth .

As sons of God what we will be is not known. But fallen mankind's lifeless bodies will return to the clay of the field and there temporal spirits that were under the letter of the law, they return the father of all spirit life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

On the last day the promise of a new body will be given to the born again believer that do have the Spirit of Christ and in the same twinkling of the eye "death" as to the letter of the law and all the suffering it brought will be cast into the judgment fire of God. Never to rise and condemn another whole creation. .

Hell is defined as a living suffering leading toward death, unto death. Not dead . . .lifeless, spiritless.

In that way it was not flesh and blood or bones that were cast but the letter of the law the source of suffering living in a body of death. You could say the wrath of God being reveled from heaven. A dying suffering creation

Death as the source of hell . . . suffering. You could say; "death as hell" I believe.

The second or final. . . end of suffering.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I think the doctrine hell begins in Genesis 4. When Cain, a fool. . said the suffering was more than he could bear.Thinking he had some bargaining power with a God who he did not believe and remained faithless throughout his life..

666 the number of non-redeemed mankind, natural man .The mark of Cain with no sabbath yoke to make the load lighter.He looked over his shoulder for death all the days of his life with no relief. Like Jonas three days in the belly of hell .But Jonas had relief and was strengthened to finish it. The father heard his cry just as hears us in our anxieties.

Yes this makes sense, where you can even have an everlasting fire that burns the physical flesh forever and ever, but the consciousness which is provided through gods spirit is gone.

If that wasn’t the case then that means gods spirit is in hell with those people suffering also, which I don’t think that’s possible due to his nature, but haven’t researched that topic.

For conscious everlasting hell it requires gods spirit to reside in those people to keep them conscious.

GdaxBbb · Mar 8, 2020

EleventhHour said:

Before you were born you had no consciousness or the spirit of god, you were basically inanimate matter.

EleventhHour · Mar 8, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

Is this in scripture?

John146 · Mar 8, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

GdaxBbb · Mar 8, 2020

John146 said:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/romans-9-11.html

Completely nothing about the age of accountability more so if you want to argue election

John146 · Mar 8, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

Whose sin are they being condemned for? Please don’t say Adam. Man is never held accountable for someone else’s sin.

GdaxBbb · Mar 8, 2020

John146 said:

Are you implying children are born sinless? And we magically decide to sin at a certain age?

notuptome · Mar 8, 2020

Luke 16 Jesus teaches Jews about eternal hell. Listen to Jesus and not men who deny the wonder of the salvation that Christ purchased for those who believe Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

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