I see lost people make choices for good or evil consistently. They are capable of choosing good as well and do so sometimes.
Is irresistible grace (effectual calling) a biblical doctrine?
- Thread starter UnitedWithChrist
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Joshua 24:15 was Joshua speaking solely to Israel my friend. The Egyptians, Assyrians, Syrians, Jebusites, Philistines, &c., were not given this choice. They had no high priest to intercede to God on their behalf. They had no sacrificial system to atone for their sins. God has justly left them in their fallen state.
If Joshua 24:15 was speaking to Israel only, the verse is still at odds with Reformed theology. Because it says there is an opportunity for Israel to choose wrongly, which would be a sign of an unregenerated man, or alternatively a sign of a regenerate man if they choose correctly.
Everyone has a choice.....
Day unto day testifies
Night unto night testifies
No language barrier
The invisible testifies
Adam had a choice
Cain had a choice
Pharoh had a choice
Noah had a choice
Moses had a choice
Felix had a choice
Jesus had a choice
Korah had a choice
Rahab the whore had a choice
Everyman has a choice
The grace of God that brings salvation has shined down upon ALL MANKIND
God would have ALL MEN be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth
NO MAN has an excuse <-ROMANS
IF MEN have no choice then MEN could plead a lack of choice....
You are right...it is not that difficult!!
Men do make choices, no one in the Reformed camp denies that. However, no one will choose something outside it’s nature. Lions will never choose to eat grass because it’s not in their nature to eat it.
Does not matter. It is still at odds with Reformed theology for the reasons that I mentioned.
There is no real choice involved there, among Israel, because the unregenerate ones will choose wrong, the regenerate ones will choose yes. Rendering the whole purpose of the "choose this day" null and void.
The reason most Christians have always believed in free will is because the many times in the Bible God is not pleased with what men do, and how men are held accountable for their actions and how they are told to repent and choose differently, this can only be true in free will theology.
This is also great for explaining all the evil in the world, "Why doesn't God stop this from happening?" Because free will! If you can not say that, you are forced to say "God decreed it, and it has a purpose in the end" which is not exactly the most righteous thing to say that God decreed every evil that ever occurs.
Does God decree some things? Yes. Does God decree every single thing? No. Otherwise God would not be displeased so often in the Scriptures for what men are doing, many times including His elect people, Israel.
I'm not sure I understand the joke.
Man has creaturely free will - he freely rebels against God due to his fallen nature, and is enslaved to it.
Read John 8, Romans 6..or the entire Bible
Reformed theology simply acknowledges sections of the Bible that others must skip over, in order to maintain their "free will" theology.
And, they must believe that a heart of stone can produce faith and repentance, to receive a heart of flesh (if they even believe that).
Instead, it makes more sense that God replaces the heart of stone with a heart of flesh, from which faith and repentance are expressed...however that doesn't jive with "free willer" theology.
Jesus had a heart of flesh...fallen man does not.
By the way, they make a choice..their choice is to pursue their own desires rather than God.
I would suggest that folks read Ephesians 2:1-10.
With regards to the Gospel, it is very CLEAR, and pertains to just about every assertion I make.
Yes it does matter my friend. Joshua was speaking to Israel in Joshua 24. He was addressing the other nations at all.
I wrote a blog about Joshua 24:15 and I’ll posit it here.
https://thecalvinistwatchdog.wordpress.com/2017/05/17/the-eisegesis-series-part-2-joshua-2415/
”Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.[Jeremiah 13:23]
Here Jeremiah is plainly saying evil ppl can choose to do good just as easily as the Ethiopian change change his skin color and the leopard change his spots. But they can choose to will themselves saved? Uh, no they can’t.
Here Jeremiah is plainly saying evil ppl can choose to do good just as easily as the Ethiopian change change his skin color and the leopard change his spots. But they can choose to will themselves saved? Uh, no they can’t.
God did decree everything my friend. The most atrocious act record anywhere, the crucifixion of the Christ, God decreed it.
What you’re saying is evil acts were not decreed by God. Yet, He had power to stop them, allowed them to happen, but they serve no purpose. That’s what you’re saying in a nutshell. God allows wicked things to happen, but they are not part of His plan, seeing He did not decree them. You’re making Him look awful wicked my friend.
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
right. you believe in a dead man who twisted just about the entire word of God
what you believe has no bearing on what is true
oh...now it's radical corruption? what happened to total depravity?
thing is, the rest of us know what the law was for and what it pointed to
your dead man thought it was still in effect
The fundamental error of free-willer theology is that it denies the extent of the radical corruption (total depravity) of the unsaved man, imputing to him an autonomous (libertarian), uncorrupted free-will that he does not possess, and a result, the narrative of Scripture makes no sense in their worldview.
The fallen man, along with his fallen will, is in bondage to sin, Satan, their flesh, and this world, being deceived by Satan and their own fallen sinful nature, and dead in Adam as a result of natural birth. He must be freed by God, and made alive again, being raised from spiritual death, through a change of nature called regeneration (being "born again" or "born from above"), before he can exercise faith and repentance.
Regeneration is a spiritual rebirth that places him from being dead "in Adam" to being alive "in Christ". This rebirth is a radical transformation of the person and his nature, going from spiritual death to spiritual life, which is likened to a heart transplant, giving him a heart of flesh to replace his heart of stone, from which the spiritual gifts of faith and repentance can be exercised.
A heart of stone cannot produce the spiritual fruits of faith and repentance; in fact, the word "repentance" means a change in mind, which is exactly what regeneration does. Regeneration is not a subsequent event following faith and repentance, but precedes faith and repentance, making them possible. The spiritually dead man is regenerated, and is raised from spiritual death, stepping forward out of his spiritual tomb. Faith and repentance follows as a result.
The free-willer view of decisional regeneration is a man-centered view of salvation that claims a heart of stone can produce faith and repentance from its own resources, in order to, receive new life and a heart of flesh.
Free-willers commonly deny that saving faith and repentance are spiritual gifts, and instead claim that faith and repentance are man's contribution to salvation. So, by necessity, there is a denial of the extent of the radical corruption which has occurred at the Fall, since this contribution must be made by an unregenerate man.
Free-willer theology is the common understanding of salvation possessed by most evangelical Christians of the last 200 years, so it is likely the view of your pastor, whether he understands the presuppositions or not.
What does Scripture say on this issue?
I suggest the following :
First, read Ephesians 2:1-10 ; it is the most concise, yet comprehensive, explanation of salvation in Scripture. Does my explanation align with it, or does the free-willer view correlate with it?
Second, read the book of Romans carefully and prayerfully, possibly with a good commentary or study Bible. I favor the Zondervan NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible edited by DA Carson. Ask yourself; whose view does Paul portray?
Third, I suggest reviewing these Scriptures to prove the accuracy of the Reformed conviction on the unsaved man's condition of radical corruption: Deu 29:4, 30:6, Eze 11:18-20, 36:25-27, Jer 17:9, 31:33-34, Jn 3:1-8, 19, 5:24-25, 8:34, 43-44, Acts 26:16-18, Rom 1:28-32, 3:10-18, 5:10, 6:6, 20-23, 8:5-9, 1 Cor 2:10-16, 2 Cor 3:3, 4:3-4, Eph 2:1-10, 4:17-18, 5:5-11, Phil 1:29, Col 1:13-14, 21-23, 2:13, Heb 8:10-12, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 3:8-10, 5:1, and Rev 12:9. Compare these Scriptures with my explanation. What impression do you get concerning the state of the fallen man, and the new birth?
Fourth, read the book Five Points of Calvinism by David Steele. This is an older, classical defense of Reformed theology and probably the best one I've seen.
Fifth, read the whole Bible. Israel was a type of the individual believer. Read the Exodus account of their deliverance from Egypt. What does it tell you about God, and how he works in salvation? Think about God's sovereignty as you read, and how he does all things for his glory. Read Isaiah 40-55. Does this portray the weak, pathetic, man-like god that some free-willers such as open theists and process theology guys portray? In their efforts to explain away God's sovereignty in salvation, they have reduced God to nothing more than a glorified man-like being who doesn't even know the future in detail. Sickening.
Sixth, evaluate carefully the claims by free-willers that Scripture doesn't really mean what it says, and their attempts to explain away the Scriptures regarding man's radical corruption as figurative language. Some of the language is figurative, but figures point to a reality, and the reality is that man is spiritually dead and unable to help himself. Such individuals are attempting to soften the impact of man's condition under the Fall, and in so doing, they are minimizing the need for grace and the powerful working of regeneration through the Holy Spirit to exercise faith and repentance. We must first acknowledge honestly man's condition before a holy and righteous God, before we can fully understand our need for grace and the great deliverance which has occurred through salvation. Unfortunately, this sort of avoidance is the norm within evangelical Christianity, and not the exception. Their free-willer message appeals to the masses, but it is not a biblical one.
The fallen man, along with his fallen will, is in bondage to sin, Satan, their flesh, and this world, being deceived by Satan and their own fallen sinful nature, and dead in Adam as a result of natural birth. He must be freed by God, and made alive again, being raised from spiritual death, through a change of nature called regeneration (being "born again" or "born from above"), before he can exercise faith and repentance.
Regeneration is a spiritual rebirth that places him from being dead "in Adam" to being alive "in Christ". This rebirth is a radical transformation of the person and his nature, going from spiritual death to spiritual life, which is likened to a heart transplant, giving him a heart of flesh to replace his heart of stone, from which the spiritual gifts of faith and repentance can be exercised.
A heart of stone cannot produce the spiritual fruits of faith and repentance; in fact, the word "repentance" means a change in mind, which is exactly what regeneration does. Regeneration is not a subsequent event following faith and repentance, but precedes faith and repentance, making them possible. The spiritually dead man is regenerated, and is raised from spiritual death, stepping forward out of his spiritual tomb. Faith and repentance follows as a result.
The free-willer view of decisional regeneration is a man-centered view of salvation that claims a heart of stone can produce faith and repentance from its own resources, in order to, receive new life and a heart of flesh.
Free-willers commonly deny that saving faith and repentance are spiritual gifts, and instead claim that faith and repentance are man's contribution to salvation. So, by necessity, there is a denial of the extent of the radical corruption which has occurred at the Fall, since this contribution must be made by an unregenerate man.
Free-willer theology is the common understanding of salvation possessed by most evangelical Christians of the last 200 years, so it is likely the view of your pastor, whether he understands the presuppositions or not.
What does Scripture say on this issue?
I suggest the following :
First, read Ephesians 2:1-10 ; it is the most concise, yet comprehensive, explanation of salvation in Scripture. Does my explanation align with it, or does the free-willer view correlate with it?
Second, read the book of Romans carefully and prayerfully, possibly with a good commentary or study Bible. I favor the Zondervan NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible edited by DA Carson. Ask yourself; whose view does Paul portray?
Third, I suggest reviewing these Scriptures to prove the accuracy of the Reformed conviction on the unsaved man's condition of radical corruption: Deu 29:4, 30:6, Eze 11:18-20, 36:25-27, Jer 17:9, 31:33-34, Jn 3:1-8, 19, 5:24-25, 8:34, 43-44, Acts 26:16-18, Rom 1:28-32, 3:10-18, 5:10, 6:6, 20-23, 8:5-9, 1 Cor 2:10-16, 2 Cor 3:3, 4:3-4, Eph 2:1-10, 4:17-18, 5:5-11, Phil 1:29, Col 1:13-14, 21-23, 2:13, Heb 8:10-12, 2 Pet 1:1, 1 John 3:8-10, 5:1, and Rev 12:9. Compare these Scriptures with my explanation. What impression do you get concerning the state of the fallen man, and the new birth?
Fourth, read the book Five Points of Calvinism by David Steele. This is an older, classical defense of Reformed theology and probably the best one I've seen.
Fifth, read the whole Bible. Israel was a type of the individual believer. Read the Exodus account of their deliverance from Egypt. What does it tell you about God, and how he works in salvation? Think about God's sovereignty as you read, and how he does all things for his glory. Read Isaiah 40-55. Does this portray the weak, pathetic, man-like god that some free-willers such as open theists and process theology guys portray? In their efforts to explain away God's sovereignty in salvation, they have reduced God to nothing more than a glorified man-like being who doesn't even know the future in detail. Sickening.
Sixth, evaluate carefully the claims by free-willers that Scripture doesn't really mean what it says, and their attempts to explain away the Scriptures regarding man's radical corruption as figurative language. Some of the language is figurative, but figures point to a reality, and the reality is that man is spiritually dead and unable to help himself. Such individuals are attempting to soften the impact of man's condition under the Fall, and in so doing, they are minimizing the need for grace and the powerful working of regeneration through the Holy Spirit to exercise faith and repentance. We must first acknowledge honestly man's condition before a holy and righteous God, before we can fully understand our need for grace and the great deliverance which has occurred through salvation. Unfortunately, this sort of avoidance is the norm within evangelical Christianity, and not the exception. Their free-willer message appeals to the masses, but it is not a biblical one.
Charles Finney was perhaps the most prominent individual who denied the necessity of regeneration prior to faith and repentance.
In fact, he thought that the faith decision was nothing more than a natural occurrence without any supernatural origin.
Here's an article concerning him, quoting his work, from a Lutheran pastor:
http://www.piratechristian.com/mess...onal-manipulation-evangelical-influence-k7r6n
In fact, he thought that the faith decision was nothing more than a natural occurrence without any supernatural origin.
Here's an article concerning him, quoting his work, from a Lutheran pastor:
http://www.piratechristian.com/mess...onal-manipulation-evangelical-influence-k7r6n
This is the core teaching behind irresistible grace.
God gives the man a heart of flesh, to replace his heart of stone, and faith and repentance issue forth from it. This is called being "born again" or regenerated.
The heart of stone has no power to exercise faith and repentance. Teaching people to trust in the power of their free will is idolatry.
This is the false doctrine of free-willers, that fails to honor God and to give him the glory he deserves.
God gives the man a heart of flesh, to replace his heart of stone, and faith and repentance issue forth from it. This is called being "born again" or regenerated.
The heart of stone has no power to exercise faith and repentance. Teaching people to trust in the power of their free will is idolatry.
This is the false doctrine of free-willers, that fails to honor God and to give him the glory he deserves.
Free will turns God into a bully who makes people "say uncle" or end up in hell. It also makes him out to be a character who bribes people with rewards if they sell out by saying, "uncle". Saying uncle = whatever condition you think you met to save yourself. "Choosing to believe", "sacraments", etc.
Grace, on the other hand, saves those who cannot believe at a spiritual level. Giving them a new heart that loves God and hates sin.
“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)
Grace, on the other hand, saves those who cannot believe at a spiritual level. Giving them a new heart that loves God and hates sin.
“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)
Believe it or not, some dispensationalists will tell you that this verse only applies to literal, fleshly Israelites and no one else.
In fact, some of these guys don't even believe the New Covenant is for Christians.