Is Perseverance of the Saints a biblical doctrine?

[Jackson123]

Revelation 2:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

From These verse I conclude that It is posible one left his first love.

I believe If Christian do not have love anymore they are not save, because God remove their candlestike

Revelation 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Seem to me If we Luke worm God Will spue us from His mouth, out of His protection we Will die

 

[Micaiah-imla]

The following scriptures do not exist:

Behold, thou art made whole, sin no more, lest you lose your reward before entering the kingdom of God.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord...And then will I profess unto them, I always knew you: Come, ye that work iniquity, but have put your trust in me.

Whosoever abideth in him continues to sin. Whosoever claims to not sin hath not seen him, neither known him. He that claims to not sin is of the devil, for the devil claims not to sin from the beginning.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth; but he that is begotten of God cannot keep himself, and that wicked one touches him.

Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might sin less against thee.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Yes, you cannot stop anyway.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I believe in perseverance. The power to do so is in Jesus not not ourselves. That we fail when we think we are can
do the work.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Come to Christ and walk in Christ. Preaching to the lost needs two important topics to hang to.

Elect differences in theology doesn't change our call to evangelize.

Rather you hold to free will or not doesn't change the fact we preach to walk in Christ. If someone walks away rather you theologically believe they wasn't a true convert, or they lost faith, or whatever, they still equally in theology still need to be prayed and evangelized to.

Ultimately only God can see whose names are listed in the book of life. Regardless if your theology believes God elected in terms of who God wanted or in terms of who God foreseen would choose Him. Then ultimately us as humans still cannot see who are unchosen and evangelizing would be pointless.

This has been debated for centuries and ultimately if you judge the fruit of Churches who hold either view, you will often see Biblical advances of both churches. Winning people to Christ. Often once they mature as a believer they switch between churches and theological understandings.

It's great to debate but only within grace and patience. Judge the fruit before dividing over. Otherwise for the immature and nonbelievers let's make sure we preach the simple Gospel which is the simple message without all the commentary or others beliefs. As they mature they now have the scriptures to filter theological beliefs.

 

[IFOLLOWHIM]

May I say here w/o receiving condemnation or ridicule?

I repented,turned away from a sinful life,and accepted the wondrous GIFT of salvation at 18. I walked with Him for the next 17 yrs. Serving in any capacity that I felt led. I believe that Jesus,God's only son,is the everlasting sacrifice as redemption for sin! I believe God is infallible and His word true,believe in a believers walk is to imitate Jesus,believe the Holy Spirit is God just as the Father and Son are! Prayer and study were my strength in Him!

I went to college at an older age and in that time I was in a bad marriage and my Mom was my only support system ( church pretty much said " deal with it"), SHE DIED!
I had too much going on in my life at that time and became mad at God for taking her!
IN so doing I began to not only be in the world but partake of it.
I rebelled against God!

I backslid,now some will say I was never saved to begin with,others will say I believe in losing salvation! I know my walk and faith and repentance in Him were real!....... I rebelled!

I became the best sinner I could,sex,drink,drugs,and abandonment of my home,children and family members.

For the next 17 yrs I did what I wanted,spitting in God's face!
Yet all the while I FELT the deep conviction of the Holy Spirit and condemnation for my life.

Many marriages later and a life with nothing good in it,I couldn't resist Him any more,I asked God to FORGIVE me!

There is much doctrine on here that I really struggle with and know little of.
I believe IF I let the Holy Spirit lead me in the word and follow that leading then I can be the child of God He wants me to be.

I know works or acts to redeem or maintain my salvation isn't on me,but this one thing I do know is that whatever service,act of obedience,inputting the word in ever thing in my heart and life pleases Him!

Pleasing Him,not for a reward but bc He loves me so much that my finite mind cannot grasp it,is my ONE goal !
I am nothing ,whereas He is everything!

I do not know the mind of God nor the mysteries of His work. I am very thankful that HE IS GOD!

I know only my heart and life must be clean and pure before Him! I CAN do this in daily examining myself and keeping true to His word! I cannot take lightly what His sacrifice is!

I pray for healing of those I hurt and forgiveness for myself!

 

[Micaiah-imla]

I pray for healing of those I hurt and forgiveness for myself!

Sounds like you're on the right path. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[Aerials1978]

May I say here w/o receiving condemnation or ridicule?

I repented,turned away from a sinful life,and accepted the wondrous GIFT of salvation at 18. I walked with Him for the next 17 yrs. Serving in any capacity that I felt led. I believe that Jesus,God's only son,is the everlasting sacrifice as redemption for sin! I believe God is infallible and His word true,believe in a believers walk is to imitate Jesus,believe the Holy Spirit is God just as the Father and Son are! Prayer and study were my strength in Him!

I went to college at an older age and in that time I was in a bad marriage and my Mom was my only support system ( church pretty much said " deal with it"), SHE DIED!
I had too much going on in my life at that time and became mad at God for taking her!
IN so doing I began to not only be in the world but partake of it.
I rebelled against God!

I backslid,now some will say I was never saved to begin with,others will say I believe in losing salvation! I know my walk and faith and repentance in Him were real!....... I rebelled!

I became the best sinner I could,sex,drink,drugs,and abandonment of my home,children and family members.

For the next 17 yrs I did what I wanted,spitting in God's face!
Yet all the while I FELT the deep conviction of the Holy Spirit and condemnation for my life.

Many marriages later and a life with nothing good in it,I couldn't resist Him any more,I asked God to FORGIVE me!

There is much doctrine on here that I really struggle with and know little of.
I believe IF I let the Holy Spirit lead me in the word and follow that leading then I can be the child of God He wants me to be.

I know works or acts to redeem or maintain my salvation isn't on me,but this one thing I do know is that whatever service,act of obedience,inputting the word in ever thing in my heart and life pleases Him!

Pleasing Him,not for a reward but bc He loves me so much that my finite mind cannot grasp it,is my ONE goal !
I am nothing ,whereas He is everything!

I do not know the mind of God nor the mysteries of His work. I am very thankful that HE IS GOD!

I know only my heart and life must be clean and pure before Him! I CAN do this in daily examining myself and keeping true to His word! I cannot take lightly what His sacrifice is!

I pray for healing of those I hurt and forgiveness for myself!

The story of the prodigal son is exactly what you’re speaking of. The son decided to return to his father(and there was great rejoice).

The issue I have with the once saved always saved doctrine is people use that as justification to commit sin knowingly. As other people have posted on this OP, there is scripture that it is to the contrary. I wouldn’t put God to the test with such a mindset.

 

[Chester]

Your separation of "the perseverance of the saints" from "once saved always saved" sounds good on paper, but I do not think you will find any (or at the most a few) on CC who will admit to believing in your definition of "once saved always saved."

I quote from what you wrote:
"The non-Reformed version ( once saved, always saved or OSAS) teaches that someone may be saved and continue in a state of careless rebellion against God. They teach that someone may accept Jesus as Savior only, and not Lord. They can continue in this state of "carnal Christianity" for the rest of their lives, and enjoy an eternal reward."

So I would like to know if anyone on CC believes this? I think I have heard one person on CC say something like what you describe.


It seems you believe that once a person has faith in God that then he will always believe, or at least believe again before he dies. If we take your position and test it with reality, it causes us to have to judge individuals.

Example: I have a brother-in-law who made a radical change and put his faith in God. But now he is a self proclaimed atheist. What if he dies in this state? You would be forced to "judge" that his original conversion was not a true one. You can say that he will come to faith in God again before he dies -- well, I hope he does; but reality tells me that may not happen.

My position is simply that those who die believing in Christ will be eternally saved, and those who die not believing will not be saved. Quite simple: just the way Scripture is quite simple! No need for making long doctrinal declarations that are not stated in Scripture.

 

[Aerials1978]

Your separation of "the perseverance of the saints" from "once saved always saved" sounds good on paper, but I do not think you will find any (or at the most a few) on CC who will admit to believing in your definition of "once saved always saved."

I quote from what you wrote:
"The non-Reformed version ( once saved, always saved or OSAS) teaches that someone may be saved and continue in a state of careless rebellion against God. They teach that someone may accept Jesus as Savior only, and not Lord. They can continue in this state of "carnal Christianity" for the rest of their lives, and enjoy an eternal reward."

So I would like to know if anyone on CC believes this? I think I have heard one person on CC say something like what you describe.


It seems you believe that once a person has faith in God that then he will always believe, or at least believe again before he dies. If we take your position and test it with reality, it causes us to have to judge individuals.

Example: I have a brother-in-law who made a radical change and put his faith in God. But now he is a self proclaimed atheist. What if he dies in this state? You would be forced to "judge" that his original conversion was not a true one. You can say that he will come to faith in God again before he dies -- well, I hope he does; but reality tells me that may not happen.

My position is simply that those who die believing in Christ will be eternally saved, and those who die not believing will not be saved. Quite simple: just the way Scripture is quite simple! No need for making long doctrinal declarations that are not stated in Scripture.

I totally agree!

 

[wattie]

Perseverance of the saints.. if it was about eternal security...

Should be 'preservation of the saved' !

😀

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Attached is a good article on misrepresentations of Reformed (Calvinist) theology that are commonly employed by free-willers.

It seems like Christians would be more conscientious about representing others' beliefs even if they disagree with them. But, unfortunately, I've found that some Christians are not conscientious in this regard and deliberately misrepresent the theology of their opponents in some cases. In other cases, it's a matter of ignorance and repeating the claims of other ignorant men. Dave Hunt would be an example of one such individual.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Here's a very handy chart of Scriptural proof texts to the doctrines of grace (TULIP) related to Reformed (Calvinist) doctrine. I don't agree with every single reference, but the majority are decent.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Here's a very handy chart of Scriptural proof texts to the doctrines of grace (TULIP) related to Reformed (Calvinist) doctrine. I don't agree with every single reference, but the majority are decent.

 

[breno785au]

The story of the prodigal son is exactly what you’re speaking of. The son decided to return to his father(and there was great rejoice).

The issue I have with the once saved always saved doctrine is people use that as justification to commit sin knowingly. As other people have posted on this OP, there is scripture that it is to the contrary. I wouldn’t put God to the test with such a mindset.

I have an issue.. It's when people say osas is justifying sin. I have not come across anyone in real life or on this site who believes osas and uses it to justify sin. Why do people continually say this? No right minded Christian will justify sin, it is against our nature (through the work Jesus has done in our hearts) to do so.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I have an issue.. It's when people say osas is justifying sin. I have not come across anyone in real life or on this site who believes osas and uses it to justify sin. Why do people continually say this? No right minded Christian will justify sin, it is against our nature (through the work Jesus has done in our hearts) to do so.

I don't use the phrase "once saved always saved" because it is associated sometimes with antinomians, who would hold this view.

In the USA there are a large number of individuals associated with some Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, Southern Baptists, Free Grace Movement, and Grace Evangelical Society (Robert Wilkin) organizations which do not believe in bibilcal repentance, and promote "easy believism" and "no Lordship salvation".

In other words, they have a diminished view of repentance as mere intellectual assent with no resulting spiritual fruit, and claim that a person can accept Jesus as Savior but not Lord.

This no-lordship view was a big battle in the dispensational camp, as one group focused on Lordship Salvation (led by John MacArthur) and another group focused on no-Lordship Salvation (led by Zane Hodges and Robert Wilkin). There are many videos on Youtube by Zane Hodge and Robert Wilkin which twist Scripture to support their false teachings.

Salvation is best viewed as union with Christ, and all of these claims regarding no Lordship salvation simply go away once Scripture is viewed in the light of union with Christ. The believer is united with Christ, and this union justifies him because he is one legally with Christ, therefore all of Christ's assets are shared with the believer, including his righteousness. Additionally, he is one vitally with Christ, and as a result he is spiritually joined with Christ, and is spiritually transformed over his lifetime. This transformation produces fruit of obedience and love through the union with Christ mediated through the Holy Spirit.

No one who has been joined to Jesus should have any reason to doubt his salvation and his eventual glorification. Read Romans 6:1-14.

I believe the major problem with the OSAS crowd is that they are a half-baked cake which does not consider union with Christ and the two aspects of it (legal and vital). They fixate on legal justification alone (the legal union) and not the vital, life-changing union. Their understanding has not developed to the point where they understand vital justification, although they understand legal justification (which is more than some works-oriented Christians know but is not the complete picture).

Nothing I have said denies the fact that the believer joined to Christ will inevitably experience the resurrection of the just on the last day, though. I don't believe that obedience justifies the person, and not a single person joined to Christ is lost. However, I am pretty sure that many are counting on a false faith for their salvation.

I just don't like using the phrase "once saved always saved" as it is associated with no-Lordship salvation people. I prefer "perseverance of the saints" or "preservation of the Holy Spirit" or even eternal security, although I think this phrase is also associated with no-Lordship salvation people too.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Is pestering of the saints a biblical doctrine?

 

[mailmandan]

I like the term, “preservation of the saints.” Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

 

[breno785au]

I don't use the phrase "once saved always saved" because it is associated sometimes with antinomians, who would hold this view.

In the USA there are a large number of individuals associated with some Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, Southern Baptists, Free Grace Movement, and Grace Evangelical Society (Robert Wilkin) organizations which do not believe in bibilcal repentance, and promote "easy believism" and "no Lordship salvation".

In other words, they have a diminished view of repentance as mere intellectual assent with no resulting spiritual fruit, and claim that a person can accept Jesus as Savior but not Lord.

This no-lordship view was a big battle in the dispensational camp, as one group focused on Lordship Salvation (led by John MacArthur) and another group focused on no-Lordship Salvation (led by Zane Hodges and Robert Wilkin). There are many videos on Youtube by Zane Hodge and Robert Wilkin which twist Scripture to support their false teachings.

Salvation is best viewed as union with Christ, and all of these claims regarding no Lordship salvation simply go away once Scripture is viewed in the light of union with Christ. The believer is united with Christ, and this union justifies him because he is one legally with Christ, therefore all of Christ's assets are shared with the believer, including his righteousness. Additionally, he is one vitally with Christ, and as a result he is spiritually joined with Christ, and is spiritually transformed over his lifetime. This transformation produces fruit of obedience and love through the union with Christ mediated through the Holy Spirit.

No one who has been joined to Jesus should have any reason to doubt his salvation and his eventual glorification. Read Romans 6:1-14.

I believe the major problem with the OSAS crowd is that they are a half-baked cake which does not consider union with Christ and the two aspects of it (legal and vital). They fixate on legal justification alone (the legal union) and not the vital, life-changing union. Their understanding has not developed to the point where they understand vital justification, although they understand legal justification (which is more than some works-oriented Christians know but is not the complete picture).

Nothing I have said denies the fact that the believer joined to Christ will inevitably experience the resurrection of the just on the last day, though. I don't believe that obedience justifies the person, and not a single person joined to Christ is lost. However, I am pretty sure that many are counting on a false faith for their salvation.

I just don't like using the phrase "once saved always saved" as it is associated with no-Lordship salvation people. I prefer "perseverance of the saints" or "preservation of the Holy Spirit" or even eternal security, although I think this phrase is also associated with no-Lordship salvation people too.

I agree. I don't associate myself with any ism's or formal labels or stamps. It never crosses my 3 children's minds whether they are still my children so neither should we belonging to a good Father.
Work out your salvation, yes.
Estimate yourself, yes.
But these things should be done in the light of knowing we have a loving Father who desires and wants what's best for you, being Himself more than we could ever want ourselves.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

" Perseverance of the saints"
I've never heard this term used with all the aforementioned doctrine attached to it. Thank God!

In the Bible it means believers bearing up under persecution and tribulation.

Perseverance. Endurance. Steadfastness.

Rev 14:12

New American Standard Bible
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

King James Bible
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

New International Version
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

English Standard Version
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
This demands the perseverance of the saints, who keep God's commands and their faith in Jesus.

NET Bible
This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints--those who obey God's commandments and hold to their faith in Jesus.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I like the term, “preservation of the saints.” Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

I like "preservation of the Holy Spirit" meaning that the Holy Spirit preserves all the saints (placing the focus on God) but preservation of the saints is true enough too

Perseverance of the saints, in Reformed language, does place the focus on God if the doctrine is understood correctly.