Does man have a libertarian free will?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Soooo, you’re saying one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before they believe, but the Holy Spirit hasn’t sealed them yet? Awkward.

No, what I said is that regeneration comes logically prior to faith and repentance, and indwelling/sealing follows this.

In reality, it is all happening at just about the same instant, but the important thing is that regeneration causes faith and repentance. A new heart is needed in order to exercise the fruit of faith and repentance. The stony heart can't produce it.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

To be honest, I don’t know what either one of them means.

Maybe you don't have this theology, then.

An open theist claims that God learns, and that he does not know the end from the beginning. He does not have exhaustive foreknowledge.

A Pelagian claims that God's grace is not necessary to come to faith, but it is helpful. He basically claims that man was not affected by Adam's Fall, in terms of original sin and the resulting total corruption, and the only thing Adam did was provide a bad example.

 

[John146]

regeneration comes logically prior to faith and repentance,

Explain please? Comes logically?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This? Nope. Adam’s sin has given us a nature to sin. We will eventually all choose sin. Lost people can choose good. Referring to salvation, the Holy Spirit leads a man through the hearing of God’s word. It is then man’s decision to choose to receive or reject Christ.

Pelagianism, also called the Pelagian heresy, is the Christian theological position that the original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid or assistance.

Your definition of Pelagianism is correct.

Regarding original sin, though, what you said was part of it, but Adam's sin is also imputed to mankind, and this imputation resulted in condemnation. This is clear from Romans 5:12-19.

It doesn't surprise me that you don't believe this teaching of imputed sinfulness, though, because most free-willers would deny it.

And, of course we disagree that the Holy Spirit simply leads the person to choose or reject Christ. My position is that God changes the nature, and a person with this changed nature will choose Christ, because the new nature loves and wants to please God.

 

[John146]

An open theist claims that God learns, and that he does not know the end from the beginning. He does not have exhaustive foreknowledge.

God learns? Or God knows our choices when we make them? Hebrews states that the Lord learned what it’s like to be in human flesh.

God knows the end from the beginning. Do you interpret this to be God knows the end and absolutely everything in between? Why doesn’t Scripture state this? We have the completed revelation from God, so we also know the end. However, we were not around in the beginning. Adam didn’t know what we know through Scripture.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Explain please? Comes logically?

Yes. Logically regeneration must preceed faith and repentance, because a new heart is needed to produce faith and repentance.

Temporally, though, all three events may occur exactly at the same time practically. It isn't like there's a huge gap of time between regeneration, faith and repentance, and indwelling/sealing of the Holy Spirit. It's basically all a simultaneous act.

The important thing is that nothing would happen without regeneration. It is like having a pile of wood with kindling, and throwing a match on the kindling and wood.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God learns? Or God knows our choices when we make them? Hebrews states that the Lord learned what it’s like to be in human flesh.

God knows the end from the beginning. Do you interpret this to be God knows the end and absolutely everything in between? Why doesn’t Scripture state this? We have the completed revelation from God, so we also know the end. However, we were not around in the beginning. Adam didn’t know what we know through Scripture.

God has exhaustive foreknowledge He exists outside of space and time. He actually exists at all points of time, past, present and future.

Therefore, he knows every decision that everyone makes. In fact, he shapes history, either through his active or permissive will.

I'm not sure what Scripture has to do with God's foreknowledge and foreordination, though, other than it records some details about them.

Scripture does teach this in Isaiah 46:9-10.

And, Scripture assumes it, since Scripture records the end of the story.

 

[NOV25]

We don’t choose to sin? Where’s the accountability?

Yes we chose sin, we love it, it is our nature, our desire, we’re born that way and we’ll continue in it less we are given a new nature and a new will.
Ezekiel 36:26-26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I, I, I Says the Lord, I will give you a new nature and cause to be a new creation with a new will, born again, born from above. It’s difficult to understand less it’s happened to you, then you see it all through scripture. It’s His plan, it’s perfect and it’s for His glory that no man (no free willer) may boast.

 

[John146]

Regarding original sin, though, what you said was part of it, but Adam's sin is also imputed to mankind, and this imputation resulted in condemnation. This is clear from Romans 5:12-19.

The results of Adam’s sin, death, is imputed to us. But I’m not going to be condemned to hell because of Adam’s sin, but my personal sin.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God learns? Or God knows our choices when we make them? Hebrews states that the Lord learned what it’s like to be in human flesh.

God knows the end from the beginning. Do you interpret this to be God knows the end and absolutely everything in between? Why doesn’t Scripture state this? We have the completed revelation from God, so we also know the end. However, we were not around in the beginning. Adam didn’t know what we know through Scripture.

God doesn't learn, in the sense that process theologians (part of open theism) teaches.

Jesus as a man learned, but God doesn't learn. Jesus has a dual nature, being both glorified man and God.

Learning would imply that God is imperfect and is not all-knowing, because there would be facts in the future he doesn't know, if in fact he were not all-knowing. But, he is all-knowing.

 

[John146]

God has exhaustive foreknowledge He exists outside of space and time. He actually exists at all points of time, past, present and future.

You’re using human logic. Allow Scripture to define God. Has God chosen to deal with man in the present? Has God chosen to limit His knowledge in order to deal with man’s decisions?

 

[John146]

Yes we chose sin, we love it, it is our nature, our desire, we’re born that way and we’ll continue in it less we are given a new nature and a new will.
Ezekiel 36:26-26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I, I, I Says the Lord, I will give you a new nature and cause to be a new creation with a new will, born again, born from above. It’s difficult to understand less it’s happened to you, then you see it all through scripture. It’s His plan, it’s perfect and it’s for His glory that no man (no free willer) may boast.

Sounds like the nation of Israel to me upon the second coming of Christ.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

 

[Jimbone]

I believe we're told our wills are not "free" at all. You did a far better job wording and explaining this in the OP, but we are told we are slaves of sin or slaves of Christ, and slave just doesn't have that "freedom" ring to it. This said we do have a will, or "choice", but "free will" just doesn't seem like something we have at any point according to how I'm understanding His word.

 

[John146]

God doesn't learn, in the sense that process theologians (part of open theism) teaches.

Jesus as a man learned, but God doesn't learn. Jesus has a dual nature, being both glorified man and God.

Learning would imply that God is imperfect and is not all-knowing, because there would be facts in the future he doesn't know, if in fact he were not all-knowing. But, he is all-knowing.

Has God in heaven ever been hungry? Does He know what it’s like to suffer physical pain? Has God ever been punched in the face? Suffer thirst? He does now that He became flesh and dwelt with us.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The results of Adam’s sin, death, is imputed to us. But I’m not going to be condemned to hell because of Adam’s sin, but my personal sin.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Death is spiritual separation from God, who is the source of all life.

So, I am not sure what you are saying.

Unless you are claiming that Adam's sin only means that man physically die.

I would say, no, that isn't true..because the context of Romans 3-6 indicates that mankind as a whole is dead in sins and tresspasses, and without hope. This isn't talking about physical death, but is talking about spiritual death.

Adam's sin led to condemnation for all men. Condemnation is spiritual.

Romans 5:12-17. I would refer people to Ephesians 2:1-10, Romans 1-6, also.

I know that free-willers cannot conceive of being held accountable for someone else's choices, but that is in fact what Scripture says. And it is a wider concept in Scripture as a whole. Many in the OT were held accountable for their leader's decisions, or for the rebellion of their family head. For example, Achan's family was put to death for his personal sin. Korah, Dathan, and Abiram's family suffered the same fate. And, the people of Israel suffered for David's personal sins.

Corporate headship is a biblical concept, whether free-willers think it is fair or not. God isn't interested in their concept of fairness.

It isn't "fair" that Jesus' righteousness is given to sinners as a free gift, either, but God does it, on the same basis as the imputation of Adam's sin to mankind....imputation.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I believe we're told our wills are not "free" at all. You did a far better job wording and explaining this in the OP, but we are told we are slaves of sin or slaves of Christ, and slave just doesn't have that "freedom" ring to it. This said we do have a will, or "choice", but "free will" just doesn't seem like something we have at any point according to how I'm understanding His word.

We have creaturely free will, but not autonomous free will. It is subject to our fallen nature or our new, regenerate nature.

 

[John146]

We have creaturely free will, but not autonomous free will. It is subject to our fallen nature or our new, regenerate nature.

Who has resisted his will? We do all the time with our choices.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Has God in heaven ever been hungry? Does He know what it’s like to suffer physical pain? Has God ever been punched in the face? Suffer thirst? He does now that He became flesh and dwelt with us.

I'm not sure how that affects free will.

I think your claim is that God must learn some things by experience. My position is that he knows all things, and he knows every thought that ever existed since eternity. And, because he engineered the human body, he knows how all of those things feel.

So, no, I don't think God learned himself while Jesus was incarnate. Jesus the incarnated man learned, but that doesn't mean in his deity he did not know those things.

It sounds to me like you are, in fact, an open theist. If I remember right, when I first started posting here, someone told me that you were an open theist, after observing some of the claims you made.

 

[Grandpa]

I believe we're told our wills are not "free" at all. You did a far better job wording and explaining this in the OP, but we are told we are slaves of sin or slaves of Christ, and slave just doesn't have that "freedom" ring to it. This said we do have a will, or "choice", but "free will" just doesn't seem like something we have at any point according to how I'm understanding His word.

The choice would be simply to stop worshipping our own will and start to Worship Christ and His Will.


If a person thinks they can just choose to be blessed by being perfect according to the Law then they cannot make this simple choice.

You must know you can't do it before you can make the choice.

And then it doesn't seem like much of a choice.


Do you want to be blessed or not? Why would someone say "No thanks"?

It is incomprehensible.


What is equally incomprehensible is thinking that you caused God to save you based on your "good" choices.

But that doesn't seem to stop anyone from arguing for it...

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Who has resisted his will? We do all the time with our choices.

There are different senses to God's will.

God's decretive will never fail to come to pass. God decrees something, and it will never fail to come to pass.

For instance, God willed that Jesus die on the Cross. There was no way this decree would fail to be accomplished.

God's prescriptive will can fail to come to pass. God prescribes something, such as obedience to his commands, but he allows people to break these commandments. His prescriptive will can fail to come to pass.

You're failing to distinguish between different senses.