Does man have a libertarian free will?

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Does man have a libertarian free will?

  • Yes, man has a libertarian free will

    Votes: 12 41.4%
  • No, man does not have a libertarian free will

    Votes: 16 55.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 3.4%

  • Total voters
    29

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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By the way, in my opinion, women Sunday School teachers and emasculated men in free-willer churches have done damage in regards to portraying God in all his glory and majesty. Their idol is an emasculated, weak, pathetic creature who is not to be feared. Little is discussed about the reality of his wrath and condemnation upon all of mankind, unless they bow the knee. Many won't even talk about the reality of eternal punishment.

And, that makes discussion of election unlikely.

Reformed churches do not shy from bringing these things up, but weak, emasculated free-willers avoid discussing this, in large measure.
Your opinion is based on nothing less that pride in self and prejudice against believers in Christ. You fail to even consider that your words are to show the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

You have no peace and no love. It is not okay to slander others who profess to know Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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While I'll admit, I don't like the word free willer...sounds like a three wheeler to me...lol

But anyways, I am not in a reformed church and no church that I have belonged to has this theory of God being weak. I've always heard it preached that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God and that Hell's real. God is alpha and omega, he is in control. He is the one that made this world and he made the plan for salvation.
Free willer is the best phrase I have for synergists.

If I use the word "synergist" and "monergist" I would get criticism too :)

Some free-willers may manage to hold onto a stronger view of God, but in essence, they teach that God is unsuccessful in his efforts to save most of mankind. He knows everything about them, from inside out, and cannot bring them to faith. It isn't for lack of trying, but because their free will prohibits it.

This alone is a portrayal of God as a weak, ineffectual being.

The Reformed view is that he foreordains the salvation of all who come to faith, and this foreordination is always effective.

This is because he changes the nature of the person, from a spiritually dead, stony heart to a spiritually alive heart of flesh. Salvation is of the Lord! like Jonah said.

The free-willer view is that a man, with a spiritually dead, stony heart must dredge up faith and repentance, in order to receive a heart of flesh. It's a totally different view.

It leaves room for a weak, effeminate god who cannot accomplish his purposes.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
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Free willer is the best phrase I have for synergists.

If I use the word "synergist" and "monergist" I would get criticism too :)

Some free-willers may manage to hold onto a stronger view of God, but in essence, they teach that God is unsuccessful in his efforts to save most of mankind. He knows everything about them, from inside out, and cannot bring them to faith. It isn't for lack of trying, but because their free will prohibits it.

This alone is a portrayal of God as a weak, ineffectual being.

The Reformed view is that he foreordains the salvation of all who come to faith, and this foreordination is always effective.

This is because he changes the nature of the person, from a spiritually dead, stony heart to a spiritually alive heart of flesh. Salvation is of the Lord! like Jonah said.

The free-willer view is that a man, with a spiritually dead, stony heart must dredge up faith and repentance, in order to receive a heart of flesh. It's a totally different view.

It leaves room for a weak, effeminate god who cannot accomplish his purposes.
I really don't understand the reformed view, but as a non-reformed person I have never heard anyone say that God is inept at anything. He made a plan for salvation for all, but not all will accept. That's not on Him. He made the plan, we just have to accept it or not that's up to us.

It is not his will that any should perish...and we know God is capable of making his will happen so there has to be a reason that many have already and many will continue to perish. So what does the reformed believe that reason is?
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Who would not in this verse Matt. 23:37? Seems to me God was willing but they would not. So doesn't this say it was their choice? Wouldn't God have gathered them up, but he didn't because they would not (they chose not)?

Matthew 23:37 King James Version (KJV)
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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I really don't understand the reformed view, but as a non-reformed person I have never heard anyone say that God is inept at anything. He made a plan for salvation for all, but not all will accept. That's not on Him. He made the plan, we just have to accept it or not that's up to us.

It is not his will that any should perish...and we know God is capable of making his will happen so there has to be a reason that many have already and many will continue to perish. So what does the reformed believe that reason is?
It is because all mankind, by default, hates God and his law, and is deceitfully wicked.

Until God acts to change their heart. And, when he changes their heart, their fundamental orientation is turned toward him, and not toward their idols.

The free-willer claim is that man is in a position to decide for God, and in essence, this results in regeneration....a changed heart. In other words, like I have said, they believe that somehow the man, dead in sins, must exercise faith and repentance in order to cause himself to be spiritually resurrected. The Reformed view is that God gives the person a new heart, from which faith and repentance comes forth.

We have no issue with election. Mankind all deserves eternal punishment, because Adam rebelled against God, and his rebellious nature continues to exhibit itself in his physical descendants (this is called being "in Adam" in Romans 5, I Cor 15). Not only that, but Adam's sin is imputed to them, so all mankind deserves spiritual death.

God saves some of them, and leaves the rest to their just fate. The ones who are saved are given a new nature, and united with Christ. This union produces spiritual fruit over the life of the man. God conforms him to the image of Christ.

That is the background of Scripture. This free-willer theology is simply garbage.

By the way, I don't use the word "Arminian" generally because even Arminius had better theology than his later followers, who basically influence free-willer theology. At least Arminius knew that man was radically corrupted by the Fall, which is something later free-willers denied. They are more like the Pelagians.

And, I don't think many modern day Sunday school teachers of the free-willer perspective will talk much about original sin, and how Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind. That's because it goes against their free-willer presuppositions. The idea that someone else's sins can be imputed to them is abominable to them. However, that's what the Bible teaches, and they simply don't have the storyline of Scripture correct.

I could discuss a lot of concepts that are fundamental to understanding this storyline, and most free-willer Christians would not understand what I'm talking about. That is because they reject large segments of the biblical revelation and cannot make sense out of the Bible, too much beyond the "Romans Road" spiel.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
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I really don't understand the reformed view, but as a non-reformed person I have never heard anyone say that God is inept at anything. He made a plan for salvation for all, but not all will accept. That's not on Him. He made the plan, we just have to accept it or not that's up to us.

It is not his will that any should perish...and we know God is capable of making his will happen so there has to be a reason that many have already and many will continue to perish. So what does the reformed believe that reason is?
edit**** take out the part where I said I am a non-reformed person....God has truly reformed me. I'm just saying, I don't hold to the Calvinist/Reformed view....
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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I could discuss a lot of concepts that are fundamental to understanding this storyline, and most free-willer Christians would not understand what I'm talking about. That is because they reject large segments of the biblical revelation and cannot make sense out of the Bible, too much beyond the "Romans Road" spiel.

For example:

1. Why was man created?
2. What does it mean to be "in Adam"?
3. What does it mean to be "in Christ"?
4. What does it mean to be "born again" or regenerated?
5. What uses does the word "death" have scripturally?
6. What uses does the word "life" have scripturally?
7. How does this relate to the presence of God?
8. What does it mean to be united with Christ?
9. How does this union justify the sinner?
10. How is this union involved in sanctification?
11. How does this affect one's identity?

Most free-willers are just going to scratch their heads, because this goes past their "Romans Road" script their Sunday School teacher gives them.

However, I can get a coherent answer from a Reformed person on each of these questions.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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edit**** take out the part where I said I am a non-reformed person....God has truly reformed me. I'm just saying, I don't hold to the Calvinist/Reformed view....
I know what you're talking about.

Actually Reformed is not the best word in regards to that..I would say regenerated..the believer has been given new life, and is a new creation. Reformed implies that the person was initially at moral perfection, and has returned to moral perfection.
 
G

G2RBeliever

Guest
Joshua24:15 And if it seems EVIL unto you to serve the Lord,CHOOSE you this day whom ye will SERVE; whether the gods which your father's served that were on the OTHER SIDE OF THE FLOOD,or the gods of the Amorites,in WHOSE LAND YE DWELL: BUT AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE WE WILL SERVE THE LORD
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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Joshua24:15 And if it seems EVIL unto you to serve the Lord,CHOOSE you this day whom ye will SERVE; whether the gods which your father's served that were on the OTHER SIDE OF THE FLOOD,or the gods of the Amorites,in WHOSE LAND YE DWELL: BUT AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE WE WILL SERVE THE LORD
God does command obedience from all men.

The issue is whether fallen man has the moral ability to be obedient to the command.

And, if not, why?

If you claim all men have the moral ability to be obedient, then you have to deal with Romans, which states that all mankind has sinned, and is, in fact, dead in sins and trespasses...as well as Ephesians 2:1-10.

Then, the question becomes, if all are dead in trespasses and sins, why did God command the Israelites, and all men, to obey him?

He commands it because the command itself displays the inability of mankind to fulfill it, therefore they must turn to Him for grace. This realization is brought about by the Holy Spirit, in the elect. Additionally, God grants the grace for them to obey him through regeneration.

For the non-elect, though, it serves as a condemnation, though. They know that they are obligated to obey God, but they do not.

2 Corinthians 2:14-17 14 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.

Again, I will remind that the Bible clearly teaches election. No matter what anyone says, all of Scripture must fit together.
 
G

G2RBeliever

Guest
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down IMAGINATIONS,and EVERY HIGH THING that exalteth itself against the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD,and bringing into captivity every thought to the OBEDIENCE of Christ.
Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest,and by scriptures of the prophets,according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to ALL nations for the OBEDIENCE of FAITH.
John 3:15 That WHOSOEVER believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is NOT slack concerning His promise,as some men count slackness; but IS longsuffering to us- ward,NOT WILLING that ANY should perish,but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.
 
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By the way, in my opinion, women Sunday School teachers and emasculated men in free-willer churches have done damage in regards to portraying God in all his glory and majesty. Their idol is an emasculated, weak, pathetic creature who is not to be feared. Little is discussed about the reality of his wrath and condemnation upon all of mankind, unless they bow the knee. Many won't even talk about the reality of eternal punishment.

And, that makes discussion of election unlikely.

Reformed churches do not shy from bringing these things up, but weak, emasculated free-willers avoid discussing this, in large measure.
Hi, I read your other post to me also. I don't agree with your view on women Sunday school teachers.

What is a freewiller?
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
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How do we know what the difference is between them? Righteousness and unrighteousness?
Because God has shown us the difference in the two. God is righteous and holy. That which goes against or is contrary to God or his commandments is unrighteousness. Just my thoughts on it.
 
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Because God has shown us the difference in the two. God is righteous and holy. That which goes against or is contrary to God or his commandments is unrighteousness. Just my thoughts on it.
Thank you for sharing that.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
By the way, in my opinion, women Sunday School teachers and emasculated men in free-willer churches have done damage in regards to portraying God in all his glory and majesty. Their idol is an emasculated, weak, pathetic creature who is not to be feared. Little is discussed about the reality of his wrath and condemnation upon all of mankind, unless they bow the knee. Many won't even talk about the reality of eternal punishment.

And, that makes discussion of election unlikely.

Reformed churches do not shy from bringing these things up, but weak, emasculated free-willers avoid discussing this, in large measure.

you must have attended a gay congregation

any church I have attended, none worshiping Calvin, has never presented God in the manner you describe. rather, scripture has been the foundation and God has not been mocked or portrayed as you describe

perhaps your own prejudice and desire to mock those here who do not follow your ultra Calvin doctrines, blind you to the fact that God does not have Calvin sitting at His right hand after all
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Hi, I read your other post to me also. I don't agree with your view on women Sunday school teachers.

What is a freewiller?

united has a history of disparaging women

if you look up older threads you will see that for yourself

he has been very insulting in the past and has toned it down..people reported him he was so over the top insulting
 
Mar 5, 2020
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united has a history of disparaging women

if you look up older threads you will see that for yourself

he has been very insulting in the past and has toned it down..people reported him he was so over the top insulting
I think I'll pass on those older threads if he was more ignorant toward women than he appears now.

Why do people think being insulting to everyone in one place makes them appear as if they know God would approve?