Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

[garee]

Prove how the baptism came apart from an apostle's hands or apart from the two outpourings. Where does it say the 3000 at Pentecost received the baptism and spoke in tongues? Or anyone else for that matter? The gift of the Holy Spirit is for all according to scripture. The baptism was not according to scripture.

The apostles hands do not come in the picture .God is not serve by human hands as a will . The Holy Spirit moved the men of old .They did not move according of their own corrupted will as a witness of men.

Faith (the unseen understanding hid from natural mankind) comes from hearing God. Not the apostles, sent ones .

He sent Balaam's Ass with prophecy to demonstrate to us "the law" that he is not served by human hands. The temporal things seen

Three thousand heard the gospel God's word which is the "work the baptism of the holy Spirit" Called the hearing of faith . They all spoke the word of God prophecy with their new born again tongue, the gospel.

Water baptism is a old testament ceremonial law .A completely different subject . Not all as one.

God has left no provision s for self edifying . That is for the self righteous . They make a sound and fall backward as a sign.

 

[Dave-L]

The apostles hands do not come in the picture .God is not serve by human hands as a will . The Holy Spirit moved the men of old .They did not move according of their own corrupted will as a witness of men.

Faith (the unseen understanding hid from natural mankind) comes from hearing God. Not the apostles, sent ones .

He sent Balaam's Ass with prophecy to demonstrate to us "the law" that he is not served by human hands. The temporal things seen

Three thousand heard the gospel God's word which is the "work the baptism of the holy Spirit" Called the hearing of faith . They all spoke the word of God prophecy with their new born again tongue, the gospel.

Water baptism is a old testament ceremonial law .A completely different subject . Not all as one.

God has left no provision s for self edifying . That is for the self righteous . They make a sound and fall backward as a sign.

The book of Acts defines how the Holy Spirit ministers. If you ignore this in other books, you twist scripture producing false doctrine.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

There’s a doctrine going around called Cessationism which teaches dat spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing have ceased since pentecost. This is completely bogous and asinine and unbiblical, even I speak in tongues sometimes and after I was born again I started seeing visions which were prophetic and actually came true aswell.


just like the bible says in Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


the only thing dat has ceased is peoples faith in Gods power as the bible says in 2 timothy 3:5 they have a form of godlyness but they deny the power off.

Lets go 2 the scriptures where there were many miracles done with the power of the holy spirit and where the holy spirit was poured out onto people after pentecost.

Also just 2 mention a prophecy from david in pslams Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

Acts 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:



Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

Acts 9:40 peter raised a woman from the dead.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

So u see hear folks, many works and miracles and out poring of the holy spirit after Pentecost in acts.

Don’t be fooled by these silly erroneous doctrines which go totally against the bible which are purposely made by the enemy 2 deceive you and turn u away from the truth and 2 destroy ur faith.

Take authority against the demons God has given it 2 his children and don’t be fearful, don’t be weary, Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Charismatics often misrepresent cessationism.

Let me give you an example.

Some charismatics will claim that a particular pastor "doesn't believe in the Gifts" or believes that the Trinity is the "Father, Son and the Bible".

I personally know a great pastor who was accused of the latter. He is a very solid pastor, who definitely believes that the gifts of the Spirit are still present within the Church.

He may not believe that the gift of "tongues" is in use now (I am not sure), and his definition of "tongues" might not be mindless blabbering, and he may not believe that charismatics have the gift of prophecy in terms of predicting the future, because so much of their prophecies are false, and he may think that healing is based on the prayer of God's people and the elders rather than being specific to an individual, though.

He still believes that God gives the gift of teaching, encouragement, helps, etcetera to believers. He just doesn't believe that a specific category of gifts that I would call "miraculous sign gifts" are applicable, because they were associated with the apostles and prophets.

Scripture teaches that these offices were in the foundation of the Church, and not in the building itself (Ephesians 2:20).

Added to this problem is the fact that many Pentecostal/charismatic churches are disordered in their services, which is unbiblical. For instance, many "speak in tongues" all at once, without an interpreter, or practice other behavior such as flopping on the floor and acting crazily.

So, what level of credibility can the non-charismatic give to a group of people who are unbiblical in their practices? Paul said that only one person should speak at a time, and an interpreter should be present. Yet, if charismatics ignore the basic teachings of the Bible in this regard, even if these spiritual gifts are still in use today, how can we believe these individuals if they are ignoring biblical instructions on the exercise of these gifts? At best, they are disobedient Christians. And I think they are self-deluded fakes in this regard.

Additionally, many charismatics claim that "tongues" are required in order to enter "level 2" of Christianity, and that non-tongues speakers are at "level 1". So, there is a strong element of pridefulness in their theology. They speak of themselves as "spirit-filled" and view non-tongues speakers as being on a lower level as themselves.

And, the same crowd often has prideful individuals strutting around calling themselves "apostles" and "prophets". Some are claiming they have resurrected the dead.

I once witnessed two charismatics trying to outdo each other in bragging about resurrecting dead people. One claimed she walked in a morgue and resurrected bodies from the dead. Another claimed he went to a funeral for a young man, placed his hand on the casket and prayed, and the coffin began to shake because the body was beginning to resurrect. He took his hands off the coffin, and it stopped shaking.

Are we seriously expected to believe such claims? And, if I am not mistaken, the lady I mentioned had sex with her son's friend and went clubbing with them. She bragged about being a MILF. So..how can I take such people seriously?

I personally don't think charismatics understand "tongues" properly, either. I would be totally willing to accept that God gives some the ability to speak languages without learning them formally. However, I don't believe that tongues are a private prayer language that gives someone a better ability to pray than another, inferior Christian.

And, as I mentioned, their alleged prophecies are mostly error and never come to pass. What are non-charismatics to understand from them, if their prophecies have an error rate that is as high as simply guessing?

That is my observation over time with them.

Like I said, though, charismatics have engaged in blatant misrepresentation of non-charismatics. For instance, claiming that they don't believe in "the gifts". The claim is that they don't believe in any gifts of the Spirit, rather than having issues with miraculous sign gifts. At least you didn't try that strawman, so I commend you for that...but your charismatic brothers and sisters make claims like this all the time.

 

[garee]

The operation of the Church is the operation of the Church, so why would it be different back then compared to now.

If they spoke in tongues back then it would apply today, and it was more than the disciples, and Paul speaking in tongues, so if the people that were not disciples, or Paul, spoke in tongues they would be able to speak in tongues today.

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, charity is the greatest, and faith and hope are not needed in heaven, but love will go on forever.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Love never fails.

I do not believe this means tongues have ceased but when the saints are in heaven that perfect is come, and in heaven all these things prophesies, tongues, knowledge of what we learned on earth will not be needed in heaven like faith and hope are not needed, but love will go on forever, for love never fails.

All that we did on earth concerning living for God will not be needed in heaven, but love will go on forever.

I believe that is what it is saying not that tongues have ceased at any point while we are on earth.

And God said He will create a new heaven and earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind, so when the saints are at the New Jerusalem they will not remember anything prior to it, and will not remember the earth, and what happened on it, for the prior creation is associated with sin and rebellion, and God does not want them to know about that, and they will not feel sad for their loved ones, and people they cared about that were not saved.

I would offer.

What would make you think men are not prophesying. Declaring the will of God with their new tongue, the gospel ? It is not of us we have the power in these bodies of death perform His desire in our life.

The desire to speak the gospel follows one that has been born again .Go out into the world with it as it is written. Our hope perhaps Christ will apply it to others hearts.

Have you visited the foundation of the doctrine of the doctrine of tongues in Isiah 28 as to why God is mocking unbelief in mankind. Using a Jew as a sign to represent to whole the God of all nations ? Together with the 1 Corinthian 14, the law is established by two witnesses.

There is a outward sign to the whole world attached to it revealed in Isaiah 28 . It shows those who mock God by the use of the oral traditions of men that make the word of God without effect . Can't serve two masters.The things of men seen and those of God not seen.

They all make a noise and fall backward to show the judgment against them . The word of God's tongue declares even after warning them they still fall backward to show their mocking of a God not seen.

The second witness.

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which "believe". 1 Corinthians 14:21-22

Tongues as prophecy is the gospel power. At Pentecost the revealing from heaven of God unseen is introduced as the God of many nations, Hid legion Bride.The reformation came, the last days began.

Something I have been looking at lately. I think that helps to reconcile a verse in Revelations 20 parable as a result of the promise in Joel . God revealing himself by prophesying to the whole world as a new kingdom of priest from every nation and tongue . Giving the a new tongue a desire to plant the gospel seed.,

Before the reformation Satan had free reign over men who had no faith that comes from hearing God. The whole world looked to the flesh of a Jew as does paganism a way to enter in . When all the nations of the world heard each speaking in the new tongue of the gospel. it opened the way for Jesus by faith to enter in ..the father of lies could no longer device the whole world in that way . The veil was rent showing his nakedness. The glory had come . In that way we are the temple. He is the open door.

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Revelations 20:3

The last days. . the beginning of a great tribulation .One like never before or ever again . It will end on the last day like the flash of lighting the twinkling of the eye





.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Another big issue with the claims concerning healings is that I don't know many who were healed completely from a devastating condition such as loss of a limb, blindness, profound deafness, etcetera.

In "healings" resulting from those claiming to have the gift of healing, they were primarily related to insignificant conditions that cannot be proven, which makes it pretty handy for the alleged healer.

So, if a charismatic can produce such a miracle, like a severe cerebral palsy victim being healed, or an amputee having a limb restored, or a blind or profoundly deaf person gaining sight or hearing, outside of the context of Scripture, perhaps we would have a reason to believe them.

I believe God sometimes heals based on his sovereign will, but at the same time, I don't believe their claims. God's healing could be more subtle because he isn't interested in the kind of attention that some charismatics would care to draw to themselves.

A good example would be Todd White and his leg-lengthening routine. It's pretty easy to claim someone's leg is a little short and then claim you healed them, for example. Con guys have shown how this can be done by moving the heel of one shoe off the person's heal a bit. And, if the person is a simpleton, they may very well be convinced to witness to White's "miracle". I notice that he tends to select simpletons and i don't think that's accidental.

 

[Absolutely]

Charismatics often misrepresent cessationism.

Let me give you an example.

Some charismatics will claim that a particular pastor "doesn't believe in the Gifts" or believes that the Trinity is the "Father, Son and the Bible".

I personally know a great pastor who was accused of the latter. He is a very solid pastor, who definitely believes that the gifts of the Spirit are still present within the Church.

He may not believe that the gift of "tongues" is in use now (I am not sure), and his definition of "tongues" might not be mindless blabbering, and he may not believe that charismatics have the gift of prophecy in terms of predicting the future, because so much of their prophecies are false, and he may think that healing is based on the prayer of God's people and the elders rather than being specific to an individual, though.

He still believes that God gives the gift of teaching, encouragement, helps, etcetera to believers. He just doesn't believe that a specific category of gifts that I would call "miraculous sign gifts" are applicable, because they were associated with the apostles and prophets.

Scripture teaches that these offices were in the foundation of the Church, and not in the building itself (Ephesians 2:20).

Added to this problem is the fact that many Pentecostal/charismatic churches are disordered in their services, which is unbiblical. For instance, many "speak in tongues" all at once, without an interpreter, or practice other behavior such as flopping on the floor and acting crazily.

So, what level of credibility can the non-charismatic give to a group of people who are unbiblical in their practices? Paul said that only one person should speak at a time, and an interpreter should be present. Yet, if charismatics ignore the basic teachings of the Bible in this regard, even if these spiritual gifts are still in use today, how can we believe these individuals if they are ignoring biblical instructions on the exercise of these gifts? At best, they are disobedient Christians. And I think they are self-deluded fakes in this regard.

Additionally, many charismatics claim that "tongues" are required in order to enter "level 2" of Christianity, and that non-tongues speakers are at "level 1". So, there is a strong element of pridefulness in their theology. They speak of themselves as "spirit-filled" and view non-tongues speakers as being on a lower level as themselves.

And, the same crowd often has prideful individuals strutting around calling themselves "apostles" and "prophets". Some are claiming they have resurrected the dead.

I once witnessed two charismatics trying to outdo each other in bragging about resurrecting dead people. One claimed she walked in a morgue and resurrected bodies from the dead. Another claimed he went to a funeral for a young man, placed his hand on the casket and prayed, and the coffin began to shake because the body was beginning to resurrect. He took his hands off the coffin, and it stopped shaking.

Are we seriously expected to believe such claims? And, if I am not mistaken, the lady I mentioned had sex with her son's friend and went clubbing with them. She bragged about being a MILF. So..how can I take such people seriously?

I personally don't think charismatics understand "tongues" properly, either. I would be totally willing to accept that God gives some the ability to speak languages without learning them formally. However, I don't believe that tongues are a private prayer language that gives someone a better ability to pray than another, inferior Christian.

And, as I mentioned, their alleged prophecies are mostly error and never come to pass. What are non-charismatics to understand from them, if their prophecies have an error rate that is as high as simply guessing?

That is my observation over time with them.

Like I said, though, charismatics have engaged in blatant misrepresentation of non-charismatics. For instance, claiming that they don't believe in "the gifts". The claim is that they don't believe in any gifts of the Spirit, rather than having issues with miraculous sign gifts. At least you didn't try that strawman, so I commend you for that...but your charismatic brothers and sisters make claims like this all the time.

Lol
Your post indicts those that you accuse of indicting your beliefs.
You guys chose to misrepresent the bible and those operating in the gifts.
You chose that and it is even part of the baptist "ministry."

None of your examples are accurate. You are guessing or spreading gossip.

"I knew a Cambodian that stood on his head on the train...so they all ride the train thataway."

 

[garee]

The book of Acts defines how the Holy Spirit ministers. If you ignore this in other books, you twist scripture producing false doctrine.

Thanks .I would agree

Some might even attribute the work of faith that Christ used to stop the madness of the false prophet Balaam. The loving law informing us God is not served by corrupted human hands

Numbers 22:28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?


We should be-careful how we hear what the Spirit says to us . We can plant and water but if any living movement he must work with us in us giving us the desire and power to finish it


Acts 17:24-28 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;for in Him we live and move and exist

 

[garee]

Another big issue with the claims concerning healings is that I don't know many who were healed completely from a devastating condition such as loss of a limb, blindness, profound deafness, etcetera.

In "healings" resulting from those claiming to have the gift of healing, they were primarily related to insignificant conditions that cannot be proven, which makes it pretty handy for the alleged healer.

So, if a charismatic can produce such a miracle, like a severe cerebral palsy victim being healed, or an amputee having a limb restored, or a blind or profoundly deaf person gaining sight or hearing, outside of the context of Scripture, perhaps we would have a reason to believe them.

I believe God sometimes heals based on his sovereign will, but at the same time, I don't believe their claims. God's healing could be more subtle because he isn't interested in the kind of attention that some charismatics would care to draw to themselves.

A good example would be Todd White and his leg-lengthening routine. It's pretty easy to claim someone's leg is a little short and then claim you healed them, for example. Con guys have shown how this can be done by moving the heel of one shoe off the person's heal a bit. And, if the person is a simpleton, they may very well be convinced to witness to White's "miracle". I notice that he tends to select simpletons and i don't think that's accidental.

Thanks

I would offer. Healing used as parables in the bible hide the Gospel understanding from unconverted mankind . These were instant healing . I would like to see the healing of the common cold. Cold be gone! Stop sniffling! Dry up salty sea !

That which is used to give us the unseen source is never the source of it. The Jews that were used to represent unbelief in mankind. They turned that upside down taking away the understanding of faith . We look to the temporal to give us the unseen eternal.

The objects we do use are corrupted they could never suffice. They represent the unseen un-imaginable glory. The Old things will not be remembered or ever come to mind. . . . when the glory comes.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[presidente]

Prove how the baptism came apart from an apostle's hands or apart from the two outpourings.

Where is the display of contrition and repentance for typing, "But, scripture says only an Apostle can distribute the gifts besides the two outpourings. " The Bible clearly does not teach this. The terminology 'baptize' to refer to baptism with the Holy Spirit is used specifically in connection with two events, but other terminology used in those passages is used elsewhere. You are claiming the scriptures say something it does not say.

Acts 2 uses terminology 'filled with the Holy Ghost', 'pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh', and 'receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.' Peter says that the promise relating to receiving the Holy Ghost is 'unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. ' Acts 11 speaks of the Spirit falling upon those who receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I have also commented on your theories and refuted them with scripture at length in various threads in the past. For some reason, your mind does not seem to retain or accept the information I present from scripture. I suspect there is something clouding your mind and your ability to comprehend spiritual truth on this matter, that would lead you to state scripture says things it does not. I do not know if you actually perceive words that are not on the page or just have a kind of confusion, but it is obvious that your judgment is clouded.

There is also just basic common sense that you seem to have a problem with. If scripture does not mention 'baptism with the Holy Spirit' or similar words except in a few passages, that does not mean that you have a right to say that Jesus does not baptize with the Holy Spirit as John said that He would.

I can only find one passage where Jesus ate fish. That doesn't mean he did not eat fish beforehand. There are a finite number of passages where we read about humans eating fish. That doesn't prove that no one eats fish today. The Bible clearly does not describe every event in detail. It does not say that you are reading these words on the screen right now. I could go through scripture and show every specific case where someone heard the Gospel. That does not prove it is impossible for someone to hear the Gospel now.

If someone were to say that because people are recorded as eating fish only in these scriptures (lists all the scriptures) that therefore noone anywhere else ever ate fish, you might think he was joking or question his mental health. But you use the same type of reasoning.

Where does it say the 3000 at Pentecost received the baptism and spoke in tongues? Or anyone else for that matter? The gift of the Holy Spirit is for all according to scripture. The baptism was not according to scripture.

Why would you consider the gift of the Holy Ghost to be different from what Peter had described from the scripture, which He used to describe the outpouring at that time.

John said that Jesus would 'baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire' to crowds that were coming to him. I have pointed this out to you. When I do that, and when I quote scripture, do you see the words on the screen? Do the scriptures leave your memory as soon as you read them?

 

[Dave-L]

Where is the display of contrition and repentance for typing, "But, scripture says only an Apostle can distribute the gifts besides the two outpourings. " The Bible clearly does not teach this. The terminology 'baptize' to refer to baptism with the Holy Spirit is used specifically in connection with two events, but other terminology used in those passages is used elsewhere. You are claiming the scriptures say something it does not say.

Acts 2 uses terminology 'filled with the Holy Ghost', 'pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh', and 'receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.' Peter says that the promise relating to receiving the Holy Ghost is 'unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. ' Acts 11 speaks of the Spirit falling upon those who receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I have also commented on your theories and refuted them with scripture at length in various threads in the past. For some reason, your mind does not seem to retain or accept the information I present from scripture. I suspect there is something clouding your mind and your ability to comprehend spiritual truth on this matter, that would lead you to state scripture says things it does not. I do not know if you actually perceive words that are not on the page or just have a kind of confusion, but it is obvious that your judgment is clouded.

There is also just basic common sense that you seem to have a problem with. If scripture does not mention 'baptism with the Holy Spirit' or similar words except in a few passages, that does not mean that you have a right to say that Jesus does not baptize with the Holy Spirit as John said that He would.

I can only find one passage where Jesus ate fish. That doesn't mean he did not eat fish beforehand. There are a finite number of passages where we read about humans eating fish. That doesn't prove that no one eats fish today. The Bible clearly does not describe every event in detail. It does not say that you are reading these words on the screen right now. I could go through scripture and show every specific case where someone heard the Gospel. That does not prove it is impossible for someone to hear the Gospel now.

If someone were to say that because people are recorded as eating fish only in these scriptures (lists all the scriptures) that therefore noone anywhere else ever ate fish, you might think he was joking or question his mental health. But you use the same type of reasoning.



Why would you consider the gift of the Holy Ghost to be different from what Peter had described from the scripture, which He used to describe the outpouring at that time.

John said that Jesus would 'baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire' to crowds that were coming to him. I have pointed this out to you. When I do that, and when I quote scripture, do you see the words on the screen? Do the scriptures leave your memory as soon as you read them?

In Acts, only an Apostle could provide the gifts (Baptism of the Holy Spirit) besides the two outpourings. But you ignore this and add your ideas instead. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-holy-spirit-in-acts-according-to-acts.191024/

 

[Dino246]

Healing used as parables in the bible hide the Gospel understanding from unconverted mankind .

Why do you keep saying that the gospel is hidden? Why do you keep calling everything in the Bible a parable?

The gospel is in the plain text, as I have demonstrated, and not everything is a parable.

 

[presidente]

In Acts, only an Apostle could provide the gifts (Baptism of the Holy Spirit) besides the two outpourings.

That is your statement, not the teaching of scripture.

But you ignore this and add your ideas instead. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-holy-spirit-in-acts-according-to-acts.191024/

No I rebutted your post with Biblical facts: "John the baptist said one coming after him would baptize with the Holy Ghost. He was not referring to the 12 apostles. The Bible does not say that the apostles gave Philip the Holy Spirit or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. "

Matthew 3 disproves your assertions:
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
[/quote]
John said these words to those who came out to him to be baptized. These were huge crowds. Peter quoted Joel 'Your sons and daughters shall prophesy...' He said that the promise of the Spirit was for them that are afar off.

I showed you specific examples of the Spirit being received without the laying on of hands of the apostles. Christ spoke of the Father giving the Holy Spirit to them that ask them.

There is this,
1 Timothy 4:14 "Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."

Acts 10 disproves the idea that apostolic hands were required for gifts like speaking in tongues to be received. It also disproves the idea that spiritual gifts were only passed through the laying on of the apostles hands. Acts 2 uses the phrase 'filled with the Holy Ghost' to describe what happened, which shows up elsewhere. Paul told the Ephesians to be filled with the Spirit, also.

In Acts, only an Apostle could provide the gifts (Baptism of the Holy Spirit) besides the two outpourings.

John said that He that came after Him who was greater than He would baptize with the Holy Ghost. He was not referring to the 12 apostles.

 

[presidente]

Another big issue with the claims concerning healings is that I don't know many who were healed completely from a devastating condition such as loss of a limb, blindness, profound deafness, etcetera.

But there are those cases. There was that guy on 'Real People' in the '70's or '80's who comes to mind who'd lost an eye. There were a number of rather dramatic healings in the 1950's, too. The US seems to be a little drier for healing these days. Maybe it has to do with people relying on the medical profession as a first course of action. Reports of some of the more dramatic healings seem to come from the developing world.

In "healings" resulting from those claiming to have the gift of healing, they were primarily related to insignificant conditions that cannot be proven, which makes it pretty handy for the alleged healer.

So, if a charismatic can produce such a miracle, like a severe cerebral palsy victim being healed, or an amputee having a limb restored, or a blind or profoundly deaf person gaining sight or hearing, outside of the context of Scripture, perhaps we would have a reason to believe them.

I'd probably heard people talk about God healing them growing up, but when I was a child, I went to school and church with a girl who had severely crossed eyes and wore glasses that magnified the way her eyes looked many times over. An evangelist at church laid hands on her, and she was healed. I spoke with her before school one morning about it. It was very clear she had been healed. She could see normally and did not wear the giant glasses. Her eyes were not crossed.

A good example would be Todd White and his leg-lengthening routine. It's pretty easy to claim someone's leg is a little short and then claim you healed them, for example. Con guys have shown how this can be done by moving the heel of one shoe off the person's heal a bit. And, if the person is a simpleton, they may very well be convinced to witness to White's "miracle". I notice that he tends to select simpletons and i don't think that's accidental.

It's a little dilemma if you want to pray for whoever needs it. What do you do with the leg length issue? I've read that over 40% of the population has one leg longer than the other. If it is a miniscule difference, we wouldn't notice it, but the bigger the difference, the more it can cause hip pain, back pain, and other issues.

So if you wanted to minister to someone like this and watch their leg grow back because you believed it was going to happen, what do you do? Do you say, sorry, I don't pray for that or lay hands on people for that, since that healing can be faked too easily?

 

[CS1]

Charismatics often misrepresent cessationism.

Let me give you an example.

Some charismatics will claim that a particular pastor "doesn't believe in the Gifts" or believes that the Trinity is the "Father, Son and the Bible".

I personally know a great pastor who was accused of the latter. He is a very solid pastor, who definitely believes that the gifts of the Spirit are still present within the Church.

He may not believe that the gift of "tongues" is in use now (I am not sure), and his definition of "tongues" might not be mindless blabbering, and he may not believe that charismatics have the gift of prophecy in terms of predicting the future, because so much of their prophecies are false, and he may think that healing is based on the prayer of God's people and the elders rather than being specific to an individual, though.

He still believes that God gives the gift of teaching, encouragement, helps, etcetera to believers. He just doesn't believe that a specific category of gifts that I would call "miraculous sign gifts" are applicable, because they were associated with the apostles and prophets.

Scripture teaches that these offices were in the foundation of the Church, and not in the building itself (Ephesians 2:20).

Added to this problem is the fact that many Pentecostal/charismatic churches are disordered in their services, which is unbiblical. For instance, many "speak in tongues" all at once, without an interpreter, or practice other behavior such as flopping on the floor and acting crazily.

So, what level of credibility can the non-charismatic give to a group of people who are unbiblical in their practices? Paul said that only one person should speak at a time, and an interpreter should be present. Yet, if charismatics ignore the basic teachings of the Bible in this regard, even if these spiritual gifts are still in use today, how can we believe these individuals if they are ignoring biblical instructions on the exercise of these gifts? At best, they are disobedient Christians. And I think they are self-deluded fakes in this regard.

Additionally, many charismatics claim that "tongues" are required in order to enter "level 2" of Christianity, and that non-tongues speakers are at "level 1". So, there is a strong element of pridefulness in their theology. They speak of themselves as "spirit-filled" and view non-tongues speakers as being on a lower level as themselves.

And, the same crowd often has prideful individuals strutting around calling themselves "apostles" and "prophets". Some are claiming they have resurrected the dead.

I once witnessed two charismatics trying to outdo each other in bragging about resurrecting dead people. One claimed she walked in a morgue and resurrected bodies from the dead. Another claimed he went to a funeral for a young man, placed his hand on the casket and prayed, and the coffin began to shake because the body was beginning to resurrect. He took his hands off the coffin, and it stopped shaking.

Are we seriously expected to believe such claims? And, if I am not mistaken, the lady I mentioned had sex with her son's friend and went clubbing with them. She bragged about being a MILF. So..how can I take such people seriously?

I personally don't think charismatics understand "tongues" properly, either. I would be totally willing to accept that God gives some the ability to speak languages without learning them formally. However, I don't believe that tongues are a private prayer language that gives someone a better ability to pray than another, inferior Christian.

And, as I mentioned, their alleged prophecies are mostly error and never come to pass. What are non-charismatics to understand from them, if their prophecies have an error rate that is as high as simply guessing?

That is my observation over time with them.

Like I said, though, charismatics have engaged in blatant misrepresentation of non-charismatics. For instance, claiming that they don't believe in "the gifts". The claim is that they don't believe in any gifts of the Spirit, rather than having issues with miraculous sign gifts. At least you didn't try that strawman, so I commend you for that...but your charismatic brothers and sisters make claims like this all the time.

That is the problem with post like this LOL they start with a blanket and cover all with their own personal experience and use it as gospel truth. I did not se any scriptural references only a personal opinion and long one at that.


The gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today and all Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing in the word of God says they have stopped. If you can prove that statement wrong with the word of God I will be happy to listen. Yet you know more about a guy named Randy white than I do and I am Pentecostal and I have never heard of him. Maybe because he is in error ? And if you know it then call him and correct him. AS the word of God says to do.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Some charismatics will claim that a particular pastor "doesn't believe in the Gifts" or believes that the Trinity is the "Father, Son and the Bible".

I've never heard that one

sounds about right

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The book of Acts defines how the Holy Spirit ministers. If you ignore this in other books, you twist scripture producing false doctrine.

awww

sorry this happened to you

 

[presidente]

Charismatics often misrepresent cessationism.

Let me give you an example.

Some charismatics will claim that a particular pastor "doesn't believe in the Gifts" or believes that the Trinity is the "Father, Son and the Bible".

And then you go on to talk about flopping on the floor and acting crazily. I've rarely heard or seen Charismatics claim cessationists believe the Bible is a part of the trinity, if at all. 'Doesn't believe in the gifts'-- I've probably heard that. It's inaccurate-- doesn't believe some gifts operate now is more accurate, usually. Though there are cessationists who will claim there is no more charismata. This is a rather bleak and ignorant position, IMO, since teaching, exhortation, and service are gifts. I suppose they think we are left with only carnal energies to work for God, or just haven't thought it through. But that is not a typical position.

I have known Charismatics who seemed to think it was spiritual to shake and act weird. There was a movement of that in the early 1990's. Be that as it may, there are things in scripture like priests not being able to minister when the kavod of God was present, or the soldiers falling down or Daniel being weak after a visionary experience. If you were praying with someone and that person fell down, would you be out of order?

The vast majority of Pentecostal churches I've been in have not had people shake or flop around. That's not the norm.

As far as disorder goes, I spent many years in the Assemblies of God (A/G) growing up and I went to an independant 'full gospel' church for many years. Someone would speak out in tongues, and another would interpret. One of the churches i attended (we moved quite a bit) had teaching against just speaking in tongues without interpretation. I just considered that an odd Charismatic practice. Some of the Charismatic groups, particularly WOF, seem to take one verse or two out of I Corinthians 14 about speaking in tongues and how edifying it is to the individual, but I wonder if they never study out the whole chapter. Other churches don't do that.

Now some of the Pentecostal churches, particularly the ones that started in the Appalachian region had been Holiness churches before the Azusa Street Revival, and they had a custom of everyone praying at the same time when they prayed. Maybe it had to do with Acts 4 where they prayed. I've heard that used as an argument, that they prayed at the same time. In the A/G churches I grew up in, I didn't see that. Some of the churches that pray at the same time do that in tongues, too, and take Paul's words in I Corinthians about interpretation just to apply to messages spoken out to the congregation, and some of the A/Gs do that too, apparently.

He may not believe that the gift of "tongues" is in use now (I am not sure), and his definition of "tongues" might not be mindless blabbering,

Historically, Pentecostals understood 'tongues' to be languages. I found The Apostolic Faith newsletter from the early 1900's, and there many testimonies of people identifying tongues as languages they knew. Someone who was there said that is what drew the crowds, with people hearing their own languages 'in tongues.' There are many accounts of this in the A/G also, with the missionaries. One missionary was trying to decide how to transliterate Jesus' name in the target language in the Bible when he was on furlough in the US, and he heard someone speak in tongues in that language and use one of the pronunciations he was considering. I haven't experienced it myself, but I have known several people who have either spoken in tongues and someone understood the language or heard a language they knew 'in tongues.'

Of course, I think most Pentecostals who consider such things and the teaching of scripture would allow for speaking in tongues to be 'tongues of angels.'

From what I have read, the early Charismatics in the US had the same understanding of what tongues is. Some linguists have labeled some kind of artificial language as 'glossalalia'. Some Christians use that term without knowing it is meant to mean a fake language, since it is made of terms used in the Biblical passages. I am not sure where the idea of tongues as some kind of spiritual language no one understands came in as a teaching. Maybe it's WOF. I think there are also academic theologians who want to embrace the glossalalia concept, (as opposed to xenoglossia, though glossalalia is made of words form the passage) who have promoted the idea of nonlanguage tongues. There are also liberals, one commentator from Germany, for example, who thought the actual speaking in tongues in Corinth was identical to what pagans did. This may also influence theologians.

He just doesn't believe that a specific category of gifts that I would call "miraculous sign gifts" are applicable, because they were associated with the apostles and prophets.

Paul has a list of people who have different gifts starting with first apostles, then prophets, then teaching, then miracles, then gifts of healings...(I Corinthians 12:28.)

That implies people who are not apostles or prophets heal.

Scripture teaches that these offices were in the foundation of the Church, and not in the building itself (Ephesians 2:20).

The foundation is not part of the building? That's like saying water is not wet. I suppose you wouldn't mind if someone removed the foundation from your house if it is not a part of it, then. If apostles and prophets are part of the foundation, that is not the same as saying all are.

In another metaphor, Paul, and apostle laid foundations. The found of Christ no doubt had been laid in Jerusalem decades before, but Paul still laid a new foundation in Corinth. A house can have foundations continually laid if it expands sideways and not just up. If you want to add a nursery to a one-story house, you'd need to dig a foundation for it.

Historically, there are records that support ongoing prophecy in the second and third centuries. There is evidence for prophesying being done in church meetings in the second century. Apparently, liturgy was embraced instead of actually obeying the scriptural commands for church meetings. Not that liturgy is necessarily bad, but ignoring what was specifically commanded is.
planted.

 

[presidente]

Added to this problem is the fact that many Pentecostal/charismatic churches are disordered in their services, which is unbiblical. For instance, many "speak in tongues" all at once, without an interpreter, or practice other behavior such as flopping on the floor and acting crazily.

So, what level of credibility can the non-charismatic give to a group of people who are unbiblical in their practices? Paul said that only one person should speak at a time, and an interpreter should be present. Yet, if charismatics ignore the basic teachings of the Bible in this regard, even if these spiritual gifts are still in use today, how can we believe these individuals if they are ignoring biblical instructions on the exercise of these gifts? At best, they are disobedient Christians. And I think they are self-deluded fakes in this regard.

I already pointed out there are churches that do interpret tongues and don't go for tongues without interpretation, praying in tongues en masse, etc. But the Corinthians were being disorderly with their gifts. You wouldn't say their gifts were false, would you? Doesn't I Corinthians prove that Christians could be disorderly with genuine gifts?

And secondly, if Paul says for the church to let one who speaks in tongues speak and let one interpret, then the churches who do not allow the one to speak in tongues and the one to interpret, what do we say of them? Why wouldn't you call such churches disobedient also? The solution to this is for us all to be obedient. That includes being orderly. But forbidding letting 'the prophets speak two or three," and letting 'the other judge' is not decent or in order either.

If they disobey the Lord in one area, your response should not be to support disobedience in another. How is cessationism consistent with obeying the order of I Corinthians 14? When it interacts with someone with the gift of tongues or prophecy who wants to use the gifts, then that's a situation ripe for disobedience. Paul said to forbid not to speak with tongues. Speaking in tongues should be done in order, but forbidding it from being done in the proper order is disobedience, also.

I suppose cessationists want us to believe the way the Holy Spirit interacts with the church changed without any real warning for scripture, and that the way we are supposed to conduct church meetings just suddenly changed, leaving us with little to no scripture about how to do church, and leaving the scriptures about church order obselete. Why include all that in the New Testament if it was only good for the immediate audience and those who lived a few decades afterwards?

Additionally, many charismatics claim that "tongues" are required in order to enter "level 2" of Christianity, and that non-tongues speakers are at "level 1". So, there is a strong element of pridefulness in their theology. They speak of themselves as "spirit-filled" and view non-tongues speakers as being on a lower level as themselves.

I understand that and share your concern. On an emotional level, I can see why that would make one wary of these Charismatics. On an intellectual level, I do not see why that is a reason for rejecting spiritual gifts.

And, the same crowd often has prideful individuals strutting around calling themselves "apostles" and "prophets". Some are claiming they have resurrected the dead.

I once witnessed two charismatics trying to outdo each other in bragging about resurrecting dead people. One claimed she walked in a morgue and resurrected bodies from the dead. Another claimed he went to a funeral for a young man, placed his hand on the casket and prayed, and the coffin began to shake because the body was beginning to resurrect. He took his hands off the coffin, and it stopped shaking.

Are we seriously expected to believe such claims? And, if I am not mistaken, the lady I mentioned had sex with her son's friend and went clubbing with them. She bragged about being a MILF. So..how can I take such people seriously?

Let's say you were an atheist and you witnessed this. Someone said Jesus raised the dead. Would you conclude that Jesus did not raise the dead because you saw people like this?

As far as raising the dead goes, I wouldn't dismiss such claims out of hand, claims of miracles including resurrection of the dead. I would be suspicious of someone who sleeps around then makes spiritual claims.

There are actually academic articles on miracles. I've come across some of this stuff on Google Scholar. I need to order Craig Keener's Miracles when I get some other reading and work done. You may want to read that book. I hear it is good and I've heard a little about the content.

I personally don't think charismatics understand "tongues" properly, either. I would be totally willing to accept that God gives some the ability to speak languages without learning them formally. However, I don't believe that tongues are a private prayer language that gives someone a better ability to pray than another, inferior Christian.

Paul mentions praying in tongues. I don't see where he actually says it is superior. Associating it with 'groanings which cannot be uttered' in Romans 8 never made sense to me because tongues were spoken as the Spirit gave utterance. I think some of these teachings thrive on a lack of vocabulary-- like not knowing what 'utter means.' It's kind of like some of the teachings on blaspheming the Holy Spirit thriving on people not knowing the meaning of 'blaspheme.' That has given Augustine's teaching some legs with some Americans.

And, as I mentioned, their alleged prophecies are mostly error and never come to pass. What are non-charismatics to understand from them, if their prophecies have an error rate that is as high as simply guessing?

There are some people who make prophecies that just aren't right. There were also large numbers of such people at certain times in the Old Testament. What was it, 400 court prophets prophesying good things about Ahab's battles to one Micaiah? And there was Jeremiah also. If you lived then, would you conclude that all prophets were false?

It seems to me from scripture and personal experience that most prophecies aren't directly about the future.

There is also Jeremiah 18 and the book of Jonah. In Jeremiah 18, if evil is decreed for a city or nation and the city or nation repents, the LORD will relent of the evil for that city or nation. If building up and planting is decreed for a city or nation and that nation does evil, the LORD will relent of the city being built up and

 

[cv5]

That is the problem with post like this LOL they start with a blanket and cover all with their own personal experience and use it as gospel truth. I did not se any scriptural references only a personal opinion and long one at that.


The gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today and all Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing in the word of God says they have stopped. If you can prove that statement wrong with the word of God I will be happy to listen. Yet you know more about a guy named Randy white than I do and I am Pentecostal and I have never heard of him. Maybe because he is in error ? And if you know it then call him and correct him. AS the word of God says to do.

Next time there is an incidence of speaking in tongues just get it on your phone and post it here buddy. You will be doing us a service, and not only that, your duty as well for you see such signs and wonders are utterly useless unless publicly known and well broadcast. You got healings? Bring them too. The destiny of souls hangs in the balance, do not tarry, do not refrain.

 

[CS1]

Next time there is an incidence of speaking in tongues just get it on your phone and post it here buddy. You will be doing us a service, and not only that, your duty as well for you see such signs and wonders are utterly useless unless publicly known and well broadcast. You got healings? Bring them too. The destiny of souls hangs in the balance, do not tarry, do not refrain.

I do not post or look to show anything. Jesus said a perverted and adulterous generation seeks a sign, I am not of that clan. I am of the ones Jesus said Sign and wonders would follow them that Believe, confirming the word of God. Go out and do your own to the glory of God. Stop trying to have other prove your doubt LOL