Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

[Dave-L]

Faith is not a work. Can you show Scripture otherwise?

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

You think you can do this on your own by choosing. If you have free will, choose to be perfect.

 

[John146]

They believe in free will use of the sacraments. You believe the same except for the sacrament obedience instead.

Keep name calling brother...faith is not a work. You should read your Bible. You would never come up with fatalism as your doctrine. Btw, learn how to rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[Dave-L]

Keep name calling brother...faith is not a work. You should read your Bible. You would never come up with fatalism as your doctrine. Btw, learn how to rightly divide the word of truth.

If faith is a condition of salvation, choosing to believe is a work.

 

[John146]

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

You think you can do this on your own by choosing. If you have free will, choose to be perfect.

Colossians 2
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

 

[Dave-L]

Colossians 2
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

But, you must have a circumcised heart (be saved) before you can believe. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[John146]

If faith is a condition of salvation, choosing to believe is a work.

If so, Paul was preaching works salvation.

Acts 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[Dave-L]

If so, Paul was preaching works salvation.

Acts 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Free will reads works into this. In view of other scriptures, I see Paul reassuring a BELIEVER (already saved or he would not have asked) about his salvation.

 

[John146]

But, you must have a circumcised heart (be saved) before you can believe. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

That’s not the order in Scripture.

 

[garee]

Everyone believes in some form of limited atonement. To put it simply, most of us Christians tend to believe the standard view of how God saved us.

• Jesus came to die for our sins as our substitute, thus providing a way in which we can be reconciled with God.
• All of us must individually accept this free gift from God.
• Those who accept it are declared righteous and will be in heaven.
• Those who reject the gift will remain unrighteous and will be in hell.

Thus, our view of the atonement is that, it is unlimited in scope but limited by our free choice. Every human can be saved but not everyone will be saved because we still need to exercise faith to accept the gift, thus we rule out the concept of universal salvation.

Those who believe in the concept of limited atonement, however, believes that Jesus only died for a limited group that was chosen by God the Father, before the foundation of the world. This is called the elected group and they believe that only this group of people can respond to the preaching and accept Jesus as their savior.

If you are not part of the elected group, you have no ability to respond to the message. This is known as the concept of total depravity. Seen from this perspective, the idea of limited atonement has the view that atonement is unlimited in the sense that the grace is irresistible to the elect, but limited in its scope as it applies only to the elected group[/QUOTE the

The Elect sets its limits according to the word of God. Both sides have limits.

No man of his own volition without the law of God can seek after God .They have no understanding. They perish without it.

There is none that understanding, there is none that seeketh after God. Roman3:11

That law above guards the integrity of the word. Just as the phrase as a many as helps us work through the word "all" avoiding the confusion of which "all" of the elect is in use.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

As many as he has given the power the hear and move as the Spirit works in them to both will and do His good pleasure they alone will come . ..

They alone will come because they alone can hear and understand..

There are some the limit grace and therefore can be judged as not having the gospel "the damnable heresy" or opinions men offer.

Scripture informs us their must be heresies or sects among us.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Catholicism stands in that holy place as a abomination of desolation. They attribute the "fullness" of grace to this Queen of heaven they have named Mary. Everyone else get a unknown remnant of grace that they must make up after the impossibility of doing any work .dead

The appointment is to die once and then comes the execution of the judgement .

Not a person must continue to suffer for another unknown time period or amount as to the kind of never ending suffering.

The good works we can offer are above ground. No dirt grace.

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. Ecclesiastics. 9:6-7

 

[John146]

Free will reads works into this. In view of other scriptures, I see Paul reassuring a BELIEVER (already saved or he would not have asked) about his salvation.

Believe and thou shalt BE saved. Not, believe and thou were already saved. Stick with Scripture.

 

[Dave-L]

That’s not the order in Scripture.

Faith works by love only a circumcised heart can have. It's a fruit of the Spirit.

 

[garee]

That’s not the order in Scripture.

What is the order of then?

Who does the first work in creating new creatures?

 

[Dave-L]

Believe and thou shalt BE saved. Not, believe and thou were already saved. Stick with Scripture.

Jesus says whoever believes HAS eternal life. Not "will have".

 

[John146]

What is the order of then?

Who does the first work in creating new creatures?

Hearing the word of God, the gospel of salvation. Then one must believe. Then they are sealed by the Holy Spirit. See Ephesians 1.

 

[John146]

Jesus says whoever believes HAS eternal life. Not "will have".

Yes, believe and then has...not, you have eternal life then you will believe.

 

[Dave-L]

Yes, believe and then has...not, you have eternal life then you will believe.

Has comes before believing. Believing confirms it.

 

[John146]

Has comes before believing. Believing confirms it.

It can’t get much clearer. Sorry you can’t see it.

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe and thou shalt be saved...

 

[Dave-L]

It can’t get much clearer. Sorry you can’t see it.

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe and thou shalt be saved...

Believing is a trait of the saved, not a condition for the self-righteous who choose to get involved in out of the goodness of their heart.

 

[John146]

Believing is a trait of the saved, not a condition for the self-righteous who choose to get involved in out of the goodness of their heart.

Nowhere found in Scripture. Your use of the term “self righteous” is ignorant. One who hears the gospel, believes the gospel and is saved is not self righteous, on the contrary. I believe the gospel because I totally trust in the finished work of the cross for my salvation, no other way.

 

[Dave-L]

Nowhere found in Scripture. Your use of the term “self righteous” is ignorant. One who hears the gospel, believes the gospel and is saved is not self righteous, on the contrary. I believe the gospel because I totally trust in the finished work of the cross for my salvation, no other way.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)