Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?
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What causes belief? Or, rather, who causes belief?
If you think it is something a fallen man, with a heart of stone, can produce from his own resources, without a heart of flesh being given to him, then you belong in the free willer camp, and you have reason to boast.
If you think it is God who gives the person a heart of flesh, which produces, as a fruit, faith and repentance, then you belong in the Reformed camp, and know that you have zero reason to boast.
That's really the determining factor.
Ephesians 2:1-10 is plain in this regard, I think, and no man has any reason for boasting, even his .1% that free willers think he has contributed to his salvation, as the determining factor.
I'm definitely in the latter camp
Praise be to God!
By the way, you may have been addressing someone else. That would be my response, though.
Additionally, the gospel is part of the means that God has decreed. He has decreed both the end and the means. That way, the regenerate man knows that the gospel is the means by which God had decreed to save him.
If you think it is something a fallen man, with a heart of stone, can produce from his own resources, without a heart of flesh being given to him, then you belong in the free willer camp, and you have reason to boast.
If you think it is God who gives the person a heart of flesh, which produces, as a fruit, faith and repentance, then you belong in the Reformed camp, and know that you have zero reason to boast.
That's really the determining factor.
Ephesians 2:1-10 is plain in this regard, I think, and no man has any reason for boasting, even his .1% that free willers think he has contributed to his salvation, as the determining factor.
I'm definitely in the latter camp
Praise be to God!
By the way, you may have been addressing someone else. That would be my response, though.
Additionally, the gospel is part of the means that God has decreed. He has decreed both the end and the means. That way, the regenerate man knows that the gospel is the means by which God had decreed to save him.
What causes belief? Or, rather, who causes belief?
If you think it is something a fallen man, with a heart of stone, can produce from his own resources, without a heart of flesh being given to him, then you belong in the free willer camp, and you have reason to boast.
If you think it is God who gives the person a heart of flesh, which produces, as a fruit, faith and repentance, then you belong in the Reformed camp, and know that you have zero reason to boast.
That's really the determining factor.
Ephesians 2:1-10 is plain in this regard, I think, and no man has any reason for boasting, even his .1% that free willers think he has contributed to his salvation, as the determining factor.
I'm definitely in the latter camp
Praise be to God!
By the way, you may have been addressing someone else. That would be my response, though.
Additionally, the gospel is part of the means that God has decreed. He has decreed both the end and the means. That way, the regenerate man knows that the gospel is the means by which God had decreed to save him.
If you think it is something a fallen man, with a heart of stone, can produce from his own resources, without a heart of flesh being given to him, then you belong in the free willer camp, and you have reason to boast.
If you think it is God who gives the person a heart of flesh, which produces, as a fruit, faith and repentance, then you belong in the Reformed camp, and know that you have zero reason to boast.
That's really the determining factor.
Ephesians 2:1-10 is plain in this regard, I think, and no man has any reason for boasting, even his .1% that free willers think he has contributed to his salvation, as the determining factor.
I'm definitely in the latter camp
Praise be to God!
By the way, you may have been addressing someone else. That would be my response, though.
Additionally, the gospel is part of the means that God has decreed. He has decreed both the end and the means. That way, the regenerate man knows that the gospel is the means by which God had decreed to save him.
You can pontificate about election and such but you only demonstrate that you do not understand the character and nature of God. A man becomes elect when he believes in Christ. Man is not elect to believe in Christ. Short way to say it is you have it in reverse order.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
It doesn't have to be "in theology", if you can say "I believed" then it's a work. It's something you actively "do", and besides that, outside of Gods grace and power we cannot choose Him. Have you not read Romans?
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
This is speaking of everybody ever born. Then when you add to this that God predestines, God draws us, repentance is a gift, and on and on. I very much understand why Dave-L believes these things and stands on them. You want to know something so crazy it'll blow your mind? I can also understand why you believe the way you believe and what you're standing on. The real crazy part is how opposed to each other you seem when honestly if you sat down and talk these things out I think you'd find that you are not as far apart as you think. Want to know why that is, at least in my opinion? This is because you are both following the Truth. It's mostly perspective, just simply how you look at it.
Example: Here with limited anointment,
Dave L believes that Jesus dies to save those He has called= Some are saved and some go to hell
You believe that Jesus died to make THE way for those who choose= Some are saved and some go to hell
(my words here to make a point, I don't know if either of you have actually said these things, just using it for my point)
So you say His God is a monster because He chooses to destine people for hell.
He says your God is powerless if He "died for everyone sin", yet everyone is not saved.
Honestly I don't see the need for such aggressiveness and separation between each other. I know since I have been reborn in His Spirit I have seen it both ways, as in I KNOW I was saved, but held both views, so I know you can be saved and believe either or. Maybe actually start listening to and trying to understand each other can unity us, you know like Jesus says. Again and as always I pray He make me more like this, because I fall pitifully short myself, I just want to see us more united, even when we have differences.
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
This is speaking of everybody ever born. Then when you add to this that God predestines, God draws us, repentance is a gift, and on and on. I very much understand why Dave-L believes these things and stands on them. You want to know something so crazy it'll blow your mind? I can also understand why you believe the way you believe and what you're standing on. The real crazy part is how opposed to each other you seem when honestly if you sat down and talk these things out I think you'd find that you are not as far apart as you think. Want to know why that is, at least in my opinion? This is because you are both following the Truth. It's mostly perspective, just simply how you look at it.
Example: Here with limited anointment,
Dave L believes that Jesus dies to save those He has called= Some are saved and some go to hell
You believe that Jesus died to make THE way for those who choose= Some are saved and some go to hell
(my words here to make a point, I don't know if either of you have actually said these things, just using it for my point)
So you say His God is a monster because He chooses to destine people for hell.
He says your God is powerless if He "died for everyone sin", yet everyone is not saved.
Honestly I don't see the need for such aggressiveness and separation between each other. I know since I have been reborn in His Spirit I have seen it both ways, as in I KNOW I was saved, but held both views, so I know you can be saved and believe either or. Maybe actually start listening to and trying to understand each other can unity us, you know like Jesus says. Again and as always I pray He make me more like this, because I fall pitifully short myself, I just want to see us more united, even when we have differences.
I’m disappointed. I didn’t think you’d cop out so easily. The fact is, you made the statement that faith is a work, thus the onus of proving anything is on you.
Surely someone as opinionated as you should be able to defend their own statement. Unless of course your ego is standing in the way of acknowledging that which we already know is true ~ that you’re wrong.
Surely someone as opinionated as you should be able to defend their own statement. Unless of course your ego is standing in the way of acknowledging that which we already know is true ~ that you’re wrong.
This is HUMANISTIC REASONING.
You won't find that in Scripture. But here is Scripture.
And He [the Risen Christ] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16 GENUINE SCRIPTURE)
So let's analyze these verses.
1. Who gave this command? THE RISEN LORD
2. Who was commanded? THE APOSTLES AND BY EXTENSION THE CHURCH
3. What was commanded? THE GOSPEL TO EVERY HUMAN BEING
4. Would that mean that all could be saved? ABSOLUTELY
5. Did that mean that all would be saved? ABSOLUTELY NOT
And here is why: but he that believeth not shall be damned.
You won't find that in Scripture. But here is Scripture.
And He [the Risen Christ] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16 GENUINE SCRIPTURE)
So let's analyze these verses.
1. Who gave this command? THE RISEN LORD
2. Who was commanded? THE APOSTLES AND BY EXTENSION THE CHURCH
3. What was commanded? THE GOSPEL TO EVERY HUMAN BEING
4. Would that mean that all could be saved? ABSOLUTELY
5. Did that mean that all would be saved? ABSOLUTELY NOT
And here is why: but he that believeth not shall be damned.