Not By Works

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." - Galatians 3:17

You say the law does disannul the Covenant of promise and that the Jews are not under that covenant and that justification for them is through works, not through faith as it is in the Covenant of promise made before the law was given.
What are you accusing me of? The Jews under the law had to obey the law to be right with God. It was counted as their righteousness.

Deuteronomy 6
23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers.
24 And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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I never said that. There is no need for straw man arguments.

In this hypothetical situation in this parable, the unmerciful servant was forgiven of his debt of ten thousand talents.

True, yet that is not the point here with the unmerciful servant. Nothing is mentioned in the parable about the unmerciful servant being saved, then losing his salvation. Forgiveness is being taught here and not type 2 works salvation.

Show me the specific words, he "despised his salvation" or "sanitized saint" in this parable. This is just your biased opinion. In Psalm 37:28, we read - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. *Was the unmerciful servant called a saint or wicked in this parable? In regards to returning to the vomit and mire, you must be thinking about 2 Peter 2:20.

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than merely cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

*Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these pigs and dogs because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

This judgment call is well above your pay grade. You are basically condemning all OSAS believers and you sound very proud and arrogant. :cautious:

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. OSAS has not blinded me from believing the gospel, yet there are numerous people in the NOSAS camp who attend various false religions and cults and trust in works for salvation. For such people, the gospel is hid to them, their eyes are blinded and they do not believe the gospel. People in general who trust in works for salvation do not believe the gospel. As for me, I absolutely DO believe the gospel, so your biased judgment call is unwarranted.
So, you don't have a problem with interpreting the following as:
  1. Master = God
  2. The Unmerciful Servant = sinner
  3. Monetary debt of which he can never repay = sin
  4. Compassion of the Master = God's grace
  5. Total forgiveness of his monetary debt = total forgiveness for our sin
  6. A condemned criminal set free to walk the streets = a justified saint
BUT SOMEHOW:

7. His CHOICE to despise his fellowservant =/= CHOICE by a saint to return to sin
8. Reinstatement of his original debt =/= forfeiture of eternal life by a saint's CHOICE to return to sin

How inconsistent.
Everything else in the parable has eternal implication, but the last part does not.
Really.
Does OSAS also misinterpret that parable of the Prodigal Son so that "my son was lost, but now he's found - my son was dead but now he's alive" is not symbolic for a sinner having passed from condemnation to eternal life, and rather is just a nice story about a proper "father/son" relationship?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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I have always stated this a reference to born again believers.
Hebrews? How so? Look to the address...Jews in the last days. That’s a reference to the immediate second coming of Christ. Hebrews is a doctrinal book for the Jews in the last days pointing them to their Messiah Jesus Christ. Hebrews serves as an amendment to the Mosaic law to a better covenant established through the death of the Jewish Messiah.
 
Aug 3, 2019
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You think a loseable salvation is a hidden Gospel... that is hilarious.

If ever there was a narrative that appeals to the carnal, unregenarated mind is a salvation that can be forsaken or revoked ....that is why people which are THE MANY believe it.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I know OSAS is a false Gospel that blinds people to the truth that our freewill choice ever remains ours to exercise.

OSAS appeals so greatly to irresponsible, carnally minded people b/c it allows them to cling to Jesus and their sinful habits/attitudes simultaneously. The reasonable, responsible, mature man who loves God says my freewill choice is never revoked and I must make the choice to remain surrendered to God if I am to claim the promises of God.

CHOICE IS NOT WORKS...IT'S THOUGHT.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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What are you accusing me of? The Jews under the law had to obey the law to be right with God. It was counted as their righteousness.

Deuteronomy 6
23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers.
24 And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.
Paul explains this.
The law wasn't given to them to be righteous.
It was given them to show they are not righteous, and can't be righteous.
You are making the exact same mistake the Israelites made.
You think the law was given as a way to be righteous before God, replacing the covenant made before that (and still in effect) where the children of Abraham are made righteous through their faith in God's promise of a son.

If you're not seeing the argument I will break it down even more for you if you want.
It's Saturday and I can't be on all day long, so I'll check in through the day. :)
 
Aug 3, 2019
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It is so hard to let go and just trust God will preserve our bare lives and perfect our conduct, finish what He started... very hard, takes a lot of faith.
"The one who still fears is not being made perfect in love" - paraphrasing John something:something
The problem is that those who advocate "let go and let God" don't mean "let go of sin and let God transform you into the image of Jesus"....they mean "let go of your responsibility to resist unto blood striving against sin and let God change His opinion of the sin that remains in you rather than change you from a sinner to a saint".
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I have no idea what you're talking about. I know OSAS is a false Gospel that blinds people to the truth that choice ever remains ours to exercise.

OSAS appeals so greatly to irresponsible people b/c it allows them to cling to Jesus and their sinful habits/attitudes simultaneously. The reasonable, responsible, mature man says my freewill choice is never revoked and I must make the choice to remain surrendered to God if I am to claim the promises of God.

CHOICE IS NOT WORKS...IT'S THOUGHT.
So you are earning your salvation?

Paul states so many things about what you have written here.

You accuse us of making Grace a license to sin.
Always the same ole tired accusation and another irony is that you do not even know what you are actually claiming.

Those that make this false accusation
"grace" of God which has been turned into licentiousness
are actually promoting their own worthiness.

Paul states that those who argue grace is a license to sin, argue from a heart of disbelief.

I on the other hand am quite aware that my works do not achieve my salvation, nor keep my salvation.... but you do believe this... so you have disbelief about the Grace of God.

Next time you make that false accusation also remember Paul stated their "condemnation is just"
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
The problem is that those who advocate "let go and let God" don't mean "let go of sin and let God transform you into the image of Jesus"....they mean "let go of your responsibility to resist unto blood striving against sin and let God's salvation not change you, just God's opinion of the sin that remains in you."
Wrong, false accusation

 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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So, you don't have a problem with interpreting the following as:
  1. Master = God
  2. The Unmerciful Servant = sinner
  3. Monetary debt of which he can never repay = sin
  4. Compassion of the Master = God's grace
  5. Total forgiveness of his monetary debt = total forgiveness for our sin
  6. A condemned criminal set free to walk the streets = a justified saint
BUT SOMEHOW:

7. His CHOICE to despise his fellowservant =/= CHOICE by a saint to return to sin
8. Reinstatement of his original debt =/= forfeiture of eternal life by a saint's CHOICE to return to sin

How inconsistent.
Everything else in the parable has eternal implication, but the last part does not.
Really.
I already thoroughly covered the parable of the unmerciful servant in multiple posts from pages 6550 - 6553. If you still refuse to see the big picture because of your biased agenda, then I can't help you any further. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-6550

Does OSAS also misinterpret that parable of the Prodigal Son so that "my son was lost, but now he's found - my son was dead but now he's alive" is not symbolic for a sinner having passed from condemnation to eternal life, and rather is just a nice story about a proper "father/son" relationship?
In this parable, being made "alive again" foreshadows the "born again" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. People in the NOSAS camp typically interpret this parable as the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation).

Yet I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS). Luke chapter 15 opens up with rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes, not believers who lost their salvation. Think about that.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Total forgiveness of his monetary debt = total forgiveness for our sin
Nowhere does this parable equate the forgiveness of the monetary debt of the master to God's forensic declaration of a sinner being justified and redeemed .. it is just not there.

The equation here is wrong.

This is eisegesis (drawing in) plain and simple

You sir have been listening to a false teacher
 
Nov 16, 2019
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The problem is that those who advocate "let go and let God" don't mean "let go of sin and let God transform you into the image of Jesus"....they mean "let go of your responsibility to resist unto blood striving against sin and let God change His opinion of the sin that remains in you rather than change you from a sinner to a saint".
You're hitting home runs, dude.
Good work.

This is building the household of God at it's finest.


There is no "if", the person either believes permanently or they never believed to begin with. This is plainly said by Jesus:

John 6:64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

Judas had initially joined and followed Jesus of his own free will, he must have believed Jesus was the Messiah in order to do so.

Did Judas start and stop believing, as you would propose happened? Jesus says differently: Judas never believed to begin with. Jesus never knew him.

Also:
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These professed believers did not get known and afterwards unknown and salvation retracted; JESUS states they were simply never known, and never saved. So I don't really know why you argue the start and stop believing. It doesn't exist.
There are certainly those who never believed to begin with.
But there are also those who did believe but who then stopped believing.
Case in point, the Galatians.
Even if you wanted to argue that they would not have stayed in their rejection of justification through Christ, if what you say above is true they would have never stopped believing in Christ in the first place.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
You're hitting home runs, dude.
Good work.

This is building the household of God at it's finest.



There are certainly those who never believed to begin with.
But there are also those who did believe but who then stopped believing.
Case in point, the Galatians.
Even if you wanted to argue that they would not have stayed in their rejection of justification through Christ, if what you say above is true they would have never stopped believing in Christ in the first place.
He actually is not .. he is another false losable salvation promoter which is in complete contradiction to the word of God.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,129
3,689
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Paul explains this.
The law wasn't given to them to be righteous.
It was given them to show they are not righteous, and can't be righteous.
You are making the exact same mistake the Israelites made.
You think the law was given as a way to be righteous before God, replacing the covenant made before that (and still in effect) where the children of Abraham are made righteous through their faith in God's promise of a son.

If you're not seeing the argument I will break it down even more for you if you want.
It's Saturday and I can't be on all day long, so I'll check in through the day. :)
The law was given to eventually show them of their need for God’s righteousness through Jesus Christ. In the meantime, they were to obey the law for their righteousness and have their sins forgiven but not taken away.

The righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ. It was not available until after the cross.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The whole context is concerning God’s righteousness through the faith of Christ. Until the faith of Christ was available, the Jew lived by his own faith as he observed the law.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Exactly!

Biblical non-osas, on the other hand, has no fear attached to it except the fear of being cut out of the tree because of turning away from the goodness of God in unbelief. The person who is continuing in the belief they started out in has no reason to fear if he is saved or not.
That's still fear based on self preservation. If you are a genuine believer, then why would you turn away from the goodness of God in unbelief? Don't confuse genuine believers with make believers.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Hmm....here we go again, believing is me trying to save myself.
What a twisted, horrible doctrine.

But of course, YOUR believing is not that, right?
Self preservation is self effort in keeping yourself saved. God's preservation goes right out the window and your doctrine at best, says "God only preserves those who preserve themselves."
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Self preservation is self effort in keeping yourself saved. God's preservation goes right out the window and your doctrine at best, says "God only preserves those who preserve themselves."
No, "God preserves those who rely on Him to do that".
That is the very essence of believing.--trusting God to keep you.
The believing itself is not the keeping. It's the access to that which keeps you.