Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
What I just posted was Jesus referring to all professing believers who weren't followed by fruit.
Jesus plainly says He never knew them.
Where does it say he was talking to 'all' professing fake believers in Matthew 7?
In Luke 13 he doesn't mention the matter of never knowing them to that group.

25“Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26“Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ - Luke 13:25-27

These particular group of Jewish evildoers will make no claim of doing miracles in his name but will be trying to persuade Jesus to give them entry to the kingdom based on their association with him in the streets of their cities. No mention of Jesus never knowing this group. We can't add that to the passage to suit a particular doctrinal preference. Besides we have other plain scriptures that don't allow us to add that to the passage and make such a sweeping judgment that all evildoers were never known by Jesus in salvation.

The Galatians are actually scolded for preaching that you can lose salvation, bondage, all the things we are arguing against on this thread...
Where?
I see the plain words in the letter that warns them they have fallen away from Christ and made him of no effect in justification by going back to the law for justification. But osas says Jesus is always in effect in justification for the believer even if they stop believing and fall away from Christ, as the Galatians did.

First, not ALL individuals among the Galatians were of equal opinion and spiritual status.
It was a mixed group with some unrest and confusion going on "but there be some that trouble you".
Yeah, I know this is a convenient argument to explain the warnings to the church about falling away, but the passages are clearly addressed to believing, saved people, not to the fake believers among them who have nothing to fall away from and no believing to hold fast to. The required message for them would be to get saved. That message is not in these warnings.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Amen, the Galatians were believers who had fallen into error this can happen it does not mean God abandons them, they received correction.
It means exactly what Paul said it means.
He plainly said they have made Christ of no effect to them in justification by going back to the law for justification.
And God's appeal to them through Paul shows us he is giving them the chance to turn back to Jesus.
Hebrews 6:4-6 shows us if they don't, God will eventually turn them over to their choice to abandon justification through faith in Christ and make it impossible for them to ever come back.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Paul accusing the Galatians of reverting back to faithlessness, those were once made partakers of the Holy Spirit, yet revert back to crucifying the Son of God afresh.
Are you speaking about Hebrews.

Lost are saved and they can be found, so yes people do make a mess and are sometimes ship wrecked, but Jesus is faithful to retrieve those that are His.

That is the only way to understand scripture and this born out in the lives of the saints over and over again.

We cannot confuse never being known by Him with those that are His.

Those that are His remain His.........and He leaves the rest to find the one.

Those are His words.

What you cannot do, is specify at what point Jesus stops retrieving those of His that have become lost... why because it is not in scripture.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Do you ever notice how we continually defend Jesus and His WORK ... and the NOSAS continually defends their own works.

Oh I know you like to change it up so it in not works, it's choice, its perpetual belief........

All of this adds up to an ongoing requirement....working for salvation.
I need this scripture that says the present tense continuation of the believing you started out in is you trying to earn your own salvation in a damnable works gospel.
But of course, your believing is not that, right?
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
The whole point of the story of cigarettes was it was not my power. I am sure that God didn't like me smoking before that, too. Right? But it somehow wasn't happening on my terms even though I wanted it to go away so badly! How does that make sense? Striving to get rid of sin produces nothing but aggravation. The only work of a saint is to trust. Work of faith, that's the only work God likes. Obedience is trust. But striving/effort does not produce obedience, nor is it obedience itself... and this is the confusion, people thinking striving is obedience. It isn't. Trust is obedience.
Exactly, it's NEVER by our might or power, but always by His Spirit. So, what is our responsibility? To generically believe as the devils do? Ours is a height and breadth of belief that leads us to CHOOSE righteousness, and the moment we make the CHOICE, God takes over to supply all the grace we need to obtain the victory. That is what it true "righteousness by faith".

OSAS teaches I can keep on making wrong choices and still go to heaven, yet sinners who keep making those same choices are barred from entrance - but will have to stand aside watching while these OSAS folks march right in along with the rest of the saints "who overcame by the blood of the Lamb"? It will never be.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
"You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet?
"10You observe days and months and seasons and years." - Galatians 4:10

It doesn't get any clearer that.
Please don't turn it into another 'not really' osas passage.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
113
Exactly, it's NEVER by our might or power, but always by His Spirit. So, what is our responsibility? To generically believe as the devils do? Ours is a height and breadth of belief that leads us to CHOOSE righteousness, and the moment we make the CHOICE, God takes over to supply all the grace we need to obtain the victory. That is what it true "righteousness by faith".

OSAS teaches I can keep on making wrong choices and still go to heaven, yet sinners who keep making those same choices are barred from entrance - but will have to stand aside watching while these OSAS folks march right in along with the rest of the saints "who overcame by the blood of the Lamb"? It will never be.
The believers can still make wrong choices. It says that one who says they don't sin are a liar. But there is a transformation going on in believer's life, so it isn't like it was before. Things get chipped off as the believer is getting prepared for the marriage supper... But as long as in physical body we are not immune to sin... I will leave it at that. Appreciate the civil discussion so far.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you?
It's amazing to me that you don't listen.
I have said repeatedly that the simple fact that God is making his appeal to them through Paul to come back means he hasn't yet turned them over without remedy to that which Paul says is the consequence of them going back to the law and away from Christ for justification.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
We don't do that...we don't crucify the Son anew...if we believe the Gospel, then we won't shipwreck our faith, which should be directed on HIM, and HIM alone...
Amen...we also have the assurance that "if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous"...but just a few verses later, the condition upon which we can claim this promise of advocacy is found: "If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

A just man falls seven times and rises up (by His grace) again, but the presumptuous man climbs down into the pit of sin, gets comfortable, covers himself with the filth of it, and refuses the outstretched hand of the Savior to lift him out....all the while claiming to be "more than a conqueror in Christ Jesus".
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
13,419
113
58
"10You observe days and months and seasons and years." - Galatians 4:10

It doesn't get any clearer that.
Please don't turn it into another 'not really' osas passage.
In some posts, you make it sound like these Galatians definitely lost their salvation, yet in other posts, you back peddle and make it sound like we will have to wait and see whether or not they did. Paul has confidence in them and did not use the words, “lost your salvation” so your argument about losing salvation here is inconclusive and speculative.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
I was not ordering it was a polite request... next I will put a smiley face if that helps

What is "surrendered to God" mean.
in practical terms?
"Just stick to the Scriptures and answer the question" is being polite? Sorry, but as a Southern Gentleman, I was raised to say "please" and "thank you" ... you don't have to be a Christian to know that's just common courtesy.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
13,419
113
58
"10You observe days and months and seasons and years." - Galatians 4:10

It doesn't get any clearer that.
Please don't turn it into another 'not really' osas passage.
It’s not over till it’s over and God ultimately preserves His saints. Period.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
Yes, it's quite ironic.
Well, when you're OSAS, it's only big sins like mass murder or voting Conservative that prove you were "never saved" -- but smugness, rudeness, personal attacks, banning people for simply exposing your bulldookey ...well, OSAS is just peachy with it LOL
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
So, it's possible to be saved without being born again? Was not the Unmerciful Servant delivered from his condemnation? What do we call it when a person is delivered from condemnation? S-A-V-E-D.
He called wicked because he despised his salvation and reverted back to doing wickedly, plain and simple. He was a sanitized saint that chose to return to the vomit and mire.

How unfortunate that OSAS has blinded so many to such plain, elementary truths. But, no wonder, seeing that OSAS is of the devil, and his motus operandi is blinding people: "If our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost, in whom the god of this world hath blinded the eyes of them which believe not, lest the glorious light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ Who is the image of God should shine unto them." 2 Cor. 4:3-4 KJV

You would not know ELEMENTARY TRUTHS, if it hit you in the face. I Posted Several to you about your addiction to Arguing, and you just remained OBLIVIOUS. IT NEVER SAID CANCELLED DEBT was EQUAL TO SALVATION, just your wishful thinking did that, through misinterpretation.


Matthew 18:27 (NJB)
27 And the servant's master felt so sorry for him that he let him go and cancelled the debt.
Matthew 18:27 (GW)
27 “The master felt sorry for his servant, freed him, and canceled his debt.
Matthew 18:27 (ISV)
27 The master of that servant had compassion and released him, canceling his debt.
Matthew 18:27 (NIV)
27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
Matthew 18:27 (NCV)
27 The master felt sorry for his servant and told him he did not have to pay it back. Then he let the servant go free.

Matthew 18:27 (HCSB)
27 Then the master of that slave had compassion, released him, and forgave him the loan.
Matthew 18:27 (YLT)
27 and the lord of that servant having been moved with compassion did release him, and the debt he forgave him.
Matthew 18:27 (ESV)
27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.
Matthew 18:27 (NRSV)
27 And out of pity for him, the lord of that slave released him and forgave him the debt.
Matthew 18:27 (NASB)
27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Matthew 18:27 (NKJV)
27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
Matthew 18:27 (ASV)
27 And the lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
Matthew 18:27 (KJV)
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Matthew 18:27 (BBE)
27 And the lord of that servant, being moved with pity, let him go, and made him free of the debt.


Never did it say the Holy Spirit took of Residence in his Heart, the Human Spirit.
Never did it say the Holy Spirit Baptized him into the Spiritual Body of Jesus Christ.
Never did it say the Holy Spirit poured GOD's Love directly in to his HEART.
NEVER DID IT IMPLY THAT HE WAS A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN AFTER THE LOAN WAS CANCELLED.


You made that up out of wishful thinking, and misinterpretation. Repent!

Bye NOW!

Every Reader, this guy has earned to be put on my IGNORE LIST.
I suggest you all do the same.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
"Just stick to the Scriptures and answer the question" is being polite? Sorry, but as a Southern Gentleman, I was raised to say "please" and "thank you" ... you don't have to be a Christian to know that's just common courtesy.
I think it is.
I could have stated a lot worse all things considered.

I prefer to be myself than put on airs.. but if you prefer

Please explain .. Thank you :)
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
Those who "permanently" fall away fit 1 John 2:19.
I see, so now we have to wait for the Judgment to see if we, or any professor of faith, qualifies for not really being saved as evidenced by permanently falling away. Just as we have to wait for the Judgment to see if we, or any professor of faith, qualifies for really being saved as evidenced by permanently believing.

Your old school osas is a useless, impractical, over-thought, Spiritless theology.
Which I believe is part of the reason it is being abandoned by the church today.

Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
If you knew the law you'd know this is not hyperbole.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
A just man falls seven times and rises up (by His grace) again, but the presumptuous man climbs down into the pit of sin, gets comfortable, covers himself with the filth of it, and refuses the outstretched hand of the Savior to lift him out....all the while claiming to be "more than a conqueror in Christ Jesus".
Sir please explain where this is shown to be the case in scripture?

Where someone refuses the Saviour?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
13,419
113
58
It's amazing to me that you don't listen.
I have said repeatedly that the simple fact that God is making his appeal to them through Paul to come back means he hasn't yet turned them over without remedy to that which Paul says is the consequence of them going back to the law and away from Christ for justification.
I listen just fine and it wasn’t a done deal for these Galatians, so a loss of salvation for them is inconclusive. Genuine believers don’t remain sidetracked. A righteous man may fall seven times and rise again.. (Proverbs 24:16)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
Well, when you're OSAS, it's only big sins like mass murder or voting Conservative that prove you were "never saved" -- but smugness, rudeness, personal attacks, banning people for simply exposing your bulldookey ...well, OSAS is just peachy with it LOL

WE BELIEVE THIS VERSE LITERALLY:

James 2:10 (NCV)
10 A person who follows all of God’s law but fails to obey even one command is guilty of breaking all the commands in that law.

Yet another LIE about OSAS Theology.