Not By Works

[SoulWeaver]

Ok, though it seems to me you're generalizing with your criticism. Those who speak of the need for obedience don't necessarily hold themselves faultless, especially in a discussion like this. If they were out yelling at people trapped in addiction to stop sinning, then yeah that's a problem. But they're not, they're confronting people who have appointed themselves teachers telling them to be wary of the unintended consequences of their message. When it comes down to Scriptural discussion on the matter its more often speaking past each other and each side citing verses and reading them through their paradigm. And when it comes down to brass tacks OSAS proponents fall into an often false humility accusing those who propose the modest proposition that God is not mocked aren't aware of their shortcomings/sins.
I do apologize for not being charitable with my reading of your statement.

Speaking against licentiousness is Biblical, it's just that when people contest licentiousness on this thread it's misdirected. I have never seen an OSAS believer here promote or defend licentiousness. Not one. We are unanimous in rejecting licentiousness. OSAS and licentiousness might be preached together by some elsewhere, but they are not a package.

This is thread about giving full credit to God's grace for our salvation, contesting licentiousness here is only bringing all participants to frustration. It would be a WAY better effort to open separate threads addressing specific false teachers (and also that way their followers may find it when googling)...

We only differ in that we believe that salvation isn't something losable, in that case nobody can be called saved nor is there real safety, salvation can only be proclaimed upon death (when one can't mess it up anymore). Instead, we believe than that a person wanting to "live it up with the world" is still unregenerate and needs to be born again. It makes no sense that someone receives a new heart from God, and this new reformed heart wants to trample the blood of grace. People teaching such evils are unregenerates. The new heart doesn't rejoice in sin (which as we agree doesn't mean the person is immune from stumbling). God chastising us and providing correction when we stumble proves we are His children.

Salvation loss theology is as dangerous as licentiousness. This instills doubts into the less mature who are being drawn to God still but don't yet know Him, making a person believe that God abandoned them and that they are damned if they stumble. In fact, this had kept me away from God for many years before I was born again. Instead of turning to God and pressing on until the obstacle is overcame, they might lose heart, needlessly staying in a spiritual limbo and suffering, or rebelling against God for a long time. They will look at other Christians to compare themselves and since some claim how they never sin anymore, they may start thinking they'll never make it, become atheists or maybe get deceived by licentious teachers...

It's that narrow middle way, not to the right, or to the left.

Apology accepted, and thanks for allowing me to clarify

 

[PennEd]

Good night John Boy.... Good night!

Night Elizabeth.


I love when the mom calls up to Johnboy and asks, "Johnboy, are smokin cigarettes up there?"

 

[Phoneman-777]

If ever an oxymoron existed, it’s right there.

So you believe "formerly forgiven" is an oxymoron?
1) The sanitized saints that return to the mire and the vomit
2) The once enlightened, God gift tasting, partakers of the Holy Spirit that fall away and crucify Jesus
3) The saints who fail to endure to the end b/c their agape turns cold and dead
4) The forgiven Unmerciful Servant's punishment reinstated
5) The former righteousness of the righteous man forgotten by God for his backsliding in Ezekiel 18
6) God telling Moses that anyone that sins against Him will have his name blotted out in Exodus 32
7) Paul's caution about preaching to others but not himself becoming a "castaway" (David says being "cast away" is having the Holy Spirit taken from us)

Does trusting in the pilot to get me down safely mean I can't up and choose to say "to heck with the wife, kids, job, mortgage" and just jump out the plane?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Nope, OSAS doesn't teach this

Well, it depends on who you talk to, I think.

 

[Phoneman-777]

where did you come up with this nonsense?

Doesn't OSAS say I can't choose to be lost once I choose to be saved?

 

[PennEd]

So you believe "formerly forgiven" is an oxymoron?
1) The sanitized saints that return to the mire and the vomit
2) The once enlightened, God gift tasting, partakers of the Holy Spirit that fall away and crucify Jesus
3) The saints who fail to endure to the end b/c their agape turns cold and dead
4) The forgiven Unmerciful Servant's punishment reinstated
5) The former righteousness of the righteous man forgotten by God for his backsliding in Ezekiel 18
6) God telling Moses that anyone that sins against Him will have his name blotted out in Exodus 32
7) Paul's caution about preaching to others but not himself becoming a "castaway" (David says being "cast away" is having the Holy Spirit taken from us)
You right! It MUST
Does trusting in the pilot to get me down safely mean I can't up and choose to say "to heck with the wife, kids, job, mortgage" and just jump out the plane?

Doesn't OSAS say I can't choose to be lost once I choose to be saved?

I'm sure a mighty man like yourself has no problem keeping himself saved!

You be my hero!

 

[Phoneman-777]

Funny, ... I am sure @PennEd is rightly centered on the love of Jesus.

Pretty sure Jesus didn't employ insult, mockery, and hypocrisy as part of His ministry...unless we're talking about some false christ, that is.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

I’ve heard people on the NOSAS side say that OSAS is of the devil and accuse OSAS believers of promoting a license to sin and being blinded by the god of this world and being ignorant and stubborn and not understanding the depth of wickedness they dwell in

I hear you.

You’re right.

I understand that many on the OSAS side really are not believing in OSAS because they like sin. I just fear for the weaker brethren that might neglect the good fright against sin because of OSAS.

God bless you!

 

[Phoneman-777]

Yes. Your flippant attitude does indeed tip the scales. When you draw the ire of a real gentleman such as PennEd, all the while engaging in snarky conversations with others, the onus falls on you.

It’s fine by me; I’m the king of sarcasm, on screen and in person. I rejoice with with everyone who wants to rejoice, teach and learn from whoever wants to teach and learn, and I shake the dust off my feet when necessary. For me it’s just another day in the office. Personally, I’m glad you’re here and look forward to future conversations regarding God.

You still ain't gettin it. I'm no more "flippant" in my criticism of OSAS as any other is of Conditional Salvation.

Now when it comes to showing respect, tell me who mostly keeps his cool and who does all the insulting, posting facepalms, mocking laughter, etc.? How about a little objectivity, please?

 

[PennEd]

Pretty sure Jesus didn't employ insult, mockery, and hypocrisy as part of His ministry...unless we're talking about some false christ, that is.

Hmmm... One of my favorite verses and quotes from Jesus is this:

Mark 2:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”


You look pretty dang healthy to me! So much so, I bet you can't even see the sarcasm from Jesus here.

 

[EleventhHour]

Pretty sure Jesus didn't employ insult, mockery, and hypocrisy as part of His ministry...unless we're talking about some false christ, that is.

I am pretty sure it is good to defend a person against false accusation.

You basically stated he did not know/have the love of Jesus?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Hey haaay! My "intelligent" brawny friend has unwittingly answered my question!! Bravo Phoneman!

He has agreed that hypocrisy IS indeed a presumptive sin. So our sinless perfectionist claims wants to slice and dice sin into neat little packages, and say that these sins over here are paid for, but those sins over there are not covered by the Blood of Christ.
So I am guessing he also believes that PETER has lost his Salvation. Ya know, the same Peter that traveled with Jesus, and wrote 1 and 2 Peter. Peter ABSOLUTELY committed the presumptive sin of hypocrisy, and therefore, according to Phoneman, has lost his Salvation for committing this presumptive sin. None other than Paul himself told Peter to his face that he was committing hypocrisy.

Galatians 2:11-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
No Return to the Law
11 Now when [a]Peter had come to Antioch, I [b]withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing [c]those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.




Goodnight Johnboy!

I'm not interested in the opinions of a disrespectful provocateur who gives me no indication of having ever met the Jesus Christ of Scripture, thank you very much.

 

[PennEd]

I'm not interested in the opinions of a disrespectful provocateur who gives me no indication of having ever met the Jesus Christ of Scripture, thank you very much.

Ahh, so people have to give YOU proof they know Jesus.

Makes sense I guess. After all you don't ever commit any sins, er sorry, PRESUMPTIVE sins that is!

 

[Phoneman-777]

Well we can add lying to whatever other presumptive sins you've committed here my large and brave amigo!

You mean I took the time to look up all those Biblical examples which prove the saints can fall from grace and you're still not convinced? I'll pray for ya, bro.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

would like you to Read my latest Post #131,395 . And tell me if I handled it RIGHT. It is YET another LIE about OSAS BELIEFS.

I believe you genuinely believe what you believe in good conscience before God. Both sides believe that they are right which is why the responses can be so strong. I just hope that your doctrinal persuasion came from an honest pure reading of scripture and not by man.

God bless!

 

[PennEd]

You mean I took the time to look up all those Biblical examples which prove the saints can fall from grace and you're still not convinced? I'll pray for ya, bro.

Thanks. I NEVER turn down prayer.

 

[Laish]

Look, pal, if you want a place where nobody ever disagrees over doctrine, please step on over to the OSAS Safe Space. You can borrow a crayon and a teddy bear and show the rest of us where the disagreements hurt you.

So now the argument is not that I have made a statement that you bring strife and that you said they are false . It’s now I need to look for a safe space from your and your SDA doctrine. Interring . This statement goes to prove that what you stated that I made a false accusations about you are false , or better put you lied 🤥 .
P.S. Oh I can’t stand crayons 🖍 more of a pen and ink guy .
Bill

 

[Phoneman-777]

Hmmm... One of my favorite verses and quotes from Jesus is this:

Mark 2:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”


You look pretty dang healthy to me! So much so, I bet you can't even see the sarcasm from Jesus here.

Good verse. Thanks.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Ahh, so people have to give YOU proof they know Jesus.

Makes sense I guess. After all you don't ever commit any sins, er sorry, PRESUMPTIVE sins that is!

Bro, what Bible are you reading? We're all called to be fruit inspectors, are we not? "Ye shall know them by their fruits" .

 

[Bbrdrd]

Speaking against licentiousness is Biblical, it's just that when people contest licentiousness on this thread it's misdirected. I have never seen an OSAS believer here promote or defend licentiousness. Not one. We are unanimous in rejecting licentiousness. OSAS and licentiousness might be preached together by some elsewhere, but they are not a package.

This is thread about giving full credit to God's grace for our salvation, contesting licentiousness here is only bringing all participants to frustration. It would be a WAY better effort to open separate threads addressing specific false teachers (and also that way their followers may find it when googling)...

We only differ in that we believe that salvation isn't something losable, in that case nobody can be called saved nor is there real safety, salvation can only be proclaimed upon death (when one can't mess it up anymore). Instead, we believe than that a person wanting to "live it up with the world" is still unregenerate and needs to be born again. It makes no sense that someone receives a new heart from God, and this new reformed heart wants to trample the blood of grace. People teaching such evils are unregenerates. The new heart doesn't rejoice in sin (which as we agree doesn't mean the person is immune from stumbling). God chastising us and providing correction when we stumble proves we are His children.

Salvation loss theology is as dangerous as licentiousness. This instills doubts into the less mature who are being drawn to God still but don't yet know Him, making a person believe that God abandoned them and that they are damned if they stumble. In fact, this had kept me away from God for many years before I was born again. Instead of turning to God and pressing on until the obstacle is overcame, they might lose heart, needlessly staying in a spiritual limbo and suffering, or rebelling against God for a long time. They will look at other Christians to compare themselves and since some claim how they never sin anymore, they may start thinking they'll never make it, become atheists or maybe get deceived by licentious teachers...

It's that narrow middle way, not to the right, or to the left.

Apology accepted, and thanks for allowing me to clarify

I get the perspective, though it seems to me that the only way to rectify a belief that salvation is eternal upon conversion(which would then take defining when that conversion moment happens, which it seems to me people fall away with all sorts of genuine looking stories) is if we somehow lose our free will. Certainly teaching that you can outsin grace wouldn't be Biblical, but unless you're preaching that God does absolutely everything including willing for us then there isn't a reason for complete confidence. Be careful to the one who thinks he stands, lest he should fall. And if God does do absolutely everything, then it becomes requisite that He is also the one willing that some be damned which goes against the heart of grace. And it comes down to conceiving of salvation purely as a past reality, which i don't think is the only way the Bible teaches it. It is both now-but not yet and if we treat it as a purely present reality our hearts are more likely to lead us into deceptions. We're less likely to respond to the Shepherd's hook bringing us back to the right path if we think the path we are on is a sure salvation.