Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

[ForestGreenCook]

This remark shows that YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE GOSPEL.

Only those who obey the Gospel will be in Heaven.

25 Now to Him that is of power to stablish you according to my Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Romans 16:25-27)

What is this "obedience of faith"? It is obedience of the Gospel. Obedience of God's commandment to all men to repent and believer on the Lord Jesus Christ. But as Paul points out by divine inspiration:

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the Gospel of peace, and bring Glad Tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:15,16)

Understanding the gospel is not the cause of our eternal deliverance, however, Understanding the gospel does deliver the born again christian here in time, but it does not deliver us eternally. It tells us how that we are delivered eternally, and that is by God's sovereign grace, without the help of man. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and you do not have spiritual faith without, first, being born of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Obeying the gospel comes, only, after you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and can understand the things of the Spirit. (Eph 2 & 1 Cor 2:14). You not understand the inability of the natural in understanding the things of the Spirit.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Scripture does interpret Scripture, the commentary didn't give me an interpretation. It gave me historical information and information about the language so I could draw my own conclusion. What happens often among reformed individuals is they make an imposition on the text that it conform to their notions rather than conforming to what it is. The reformers read it with an overlay of medeival court notions borrowed from Augustine's conceptions of Roman courts and then interpreted with that overlay. If we are to let Scripture speak for itself we must get as close to its context as possible and that requires learning about the history and culture that it was presented to. Your doctrine isn't coming from Scripture in its own context but reading a false reading of Paul into the entire book that pits many verses against each other and lends to rampant confusion.

I am sure it does appear as confusion to you and many others. The same thing that happened to the majority of people when Jesus was preaching the same doctrine.

 

[Bbrdrd]

I am sure it does appear as confusion to you and many others. The same thing that happened to the majority of people when Jesus was preaching the same doctrine.

There's no confusion to me of the gospel. Scripture fits together great, what doesn't fit is the doctrines put forward by those flying the banner of "reformed". History testifies against them, Scripture testifies against them, logic testifies against them, justice testifies against them. So tell me without appealing to your doctrine, if the atonement was limited only to those who receive it why does 1 John 2:2 say it was enough for all mankind?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

There's no confusion to me of the gospel. Scripture fits together great, what doesn't fit is the doctrines put forward by those flying the banner of "reformed". History testifies against them, Scripture testifies against them, logic testifies against them, justice testifies against them. So tell me without appealing to your doctrine, if the atonement was limited only to those who receive it why does 1 John 2:2 say it was enough for all mankind?

It says and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. The same thing is being expressed here by John as was in John 1:29. 'Propitiation' means 'atoning sacrifice' and the NIV aptly uses that very wording. Now, who was propitiated? It was not man, but God. God was the one offended. Man offended God, and they had to pay Him for the wrong they committed. Yet, man could not do this. He had no way of repairing the damage incurred by Adam's fall in the Garden. That is why the God-man, the Christ came in the flesh. Man sinned, man must repay. The Christ becomes flesh, lives the sinless, perfect life, that no other man could live. When He was imputed the sins of the ones the Father gave Him, He stood before His Father as a guilty sinner. Remember, He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.[2 Corinthians 5:21] He will forever be the sinless, spotless Lamb of God, but He was reckoned a sinner when He was imputed the elect of God's sins. And God dealt with Him as if it was me or another person. This shows the holiness and righteousness of God. He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?[Romans 8:32] It was the Father who delivered His Son over to those who would mock, spit upon, rip the beard from His face, place a crown of thorns upon His head, and nail to the cross. This is what propitiation is. It makes an actual payment to the Father, and the Father was satisfied with the payment the Son made. If He propitiated God for 'everybody whoever lived' sins, then the Father is satisfied for their payment the Christ made, and all are saved. But we know on the day of judgment many will be cast headlong into an eternal lake of fire.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

There's no confusion to me of the gospel. Scripture fits together great, what doesn't fit is the doctrines put forward by those flying the banner of "reformed". History testifies against them, Scripture testifies against them, logic testifies against them, justice testifies against them. So tell me without appealing to your doctrine, if the atonement was limited only to those who receive it why does 1 John 2:2 say it was enough for all mankind?

Now, let us look into all the atonement, propitiation entails. Propitiation means..

==The act of gaining or regaining the favor or goodwill of someone or something : the act of propitiating : APPEASEMENT

It means that God's wrath has been appeased. What does appease mean?

== PACIFY, CONCILIATE especially : to make concessions to (someone, such as an aggressor or a critic) often at the sacrifice of principles

== to cause to subside : ALLAY

Propitiation means that God's wrath has been appeased, pacified, subsided, allayed. If this propitiation to God was for 'everybody whoever lived', then His wrath has been appeased, pacified, subsided, allayed for 'everybody whoever lived', and everybody whoever lived is saved.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

There's no confusion to me of the gospel. Scripture fits together great, what doesn't fit is the doctrines put forward by those flying the banner of "reformed". History testifies against them, Scripture testifies against them, logic testifies against them, justice testifies against them. So tell me without appealing to your doctrine, if the atonement was limited only to those who receive it why does 1 John 2:2 say it was enough for all mankind?

The atonement also brought with it reconciliation. Reconciliation is where two former enemies are made friends. In Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. In Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” And finally in James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. All of these attest to that believing not only makes one righteous, but also a friend of God where they were once His enemy. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.[Romans 5:10]

Now, let us examine a verse that gets bandied about quite often. namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.[2 Corinthians 5:19] Many see the word 'world' and think He is reconciling 'everybody whoever lived' unto Himself. Not so fast my friends. There is a section in that verse, the 500 lb gorilla, that needs addressed. In that verse, it says not counting their trespasses against them. 'World' here cannot mean 'everybody whoever lived' as many will die in their sins, die as an enemy of God, die not being reconciled to God. If He is literally reconciling everyone to Himself, then everyone will be saved, seeing they were reconciled, made His friend, and not having their trespasses counted against them.

 

[Dave-L]

Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation is not a work of the law. The scripture states to repent toward God and have faith toward Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Repentance is not a work, but a change of mind. It is not forced, but a choice.

Believing is a work of the law if salvation becomes a choice of the flesh to obey. Saved people do not choose to believe, they believe because of Christ giving them a new heart.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

 

[garee]

Scripture does interpret Scripture, the commentary didn't give me an interpretation. It gave me historical information and information about the language so I could draw my own conclusion. What happens often among reformed individuals is they make an imposition on the text that it conform to their notions rather than conforming to what it is. The reformers read it with an overlay of medeival court notions borrowed from Augustine's conceptions of Roman courts and then interpreted with that overlay. If we are to let Scripture speak for itself we must get as close to its context as possible and that requires learning about the history and culture that it was presented to. Your doctrine isn't coming from Scripture in its own context but reading a false reading of Paul into the entire book that pits many verses against each other and lends to rampant confusion.

That simply makes no sense. Augustine is dead and so is Luther .The bible is the witness of God not the witness of men like Luther or Augustine.

Catholicism has nothing to do with sola scriptura. ( Christianity) Its their Nemesis .It makes the law of their fathers called apostolic succession without effect.

The key is as many as .. . revealing a parable in in view. God does not number people or time We walk by faith . As many as he has given power to become born from above they alone can and will come . Not one more written in the lambs book of life from before the foundation of the world or one less

There is no almost persuaded .

Matthew 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Not one more or one less.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Not one more or one less.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Not one more or one less.

No power of the name working in the new creature. . no belief no faith

 

[John146]

Believing is a work of the law if salvation becomes a choice of the flesh to obey. Saved people do not choose to believe, they believe because of Christ giving them a new heart.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

Deuteronomy is a prophecy concerning the Jews in the last days upon the second coming of Christ. It matches up with Hebrews.

 

[Dave-L]

Deuteronomy is a prophecy concerning the Jews in the last days upon the second coming of Christ. It matches up with Hebrews.

Compare it to the New Birth. Circumcision of the heart and the New Birth are the same.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.” Galatians 5:22–26 (KJV 1900)

 

[John146]

Compare it to the New Birth. Circumcision of the heart and the New Birth are the same.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.” Galatians 5:22–26 (KJV 1900)

Yes, Deuteronomy is future at His second coming. See Hebrews.

 

[Dave-L]

Yes, Deuteronomy is future at His second coming. See Hebrews.

If you do not have the Spirit of God, you are not saved.

 

[John146]

If you do not have the Spirit of God, you are not saved.

Yes, in the Church age. Why the need for Abraham’s bosom before the cross? Where did those OT saints go upon death? Sleep with their fathers? Where?

 

[Dave-L]

Yes, in the Church age. Why the need for Abraham’s bosom before the cross? Where did those OT saints go upon death? Sleep with their fathers? Where?

Sleep means buried while their spirits are in heaven.

 

[John146]

Sleep means buried while their spirits are in heaven.

Their spirits return to God and their souls slept in Abraham’s bosom. Samuel was brought up from sleep by Saul. He was not brought down from heaven. Words matter.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I think you are calling into question the idea of creeds or systemized theology, altogether not just the idea of limited atonement.
And I agree that some of the theological statements or creeds are a bit errant. However for us to read the Bible and then explain the passages is the same thing. The Creeds and systemized theology is an attempt to understand and explain the message of the scriptures. Where you run into problems is when one forgets the full context, and takes a passage or even a set of passages out of full context. This is where errant ideas such as limited atonement come from.

 

[Dave-L]

Their spirits return to God and their souls slept in Abraham’s bosom. Samuel was brought up from sleep by Saul. He was not brought down from heaven. Words matter.

Abraham's Bosom = Heaven.
1.16 κόλπος Ἀβραάμ: (an idiom, literally ‘Abraham’s bosom’) the heavenly abode, with the implication of close interpersonal relations—‘Abraham’s bosom, heaven.’ ἀπενεχθῆναι αὐτὸν ὑπὸ τῶν ἀγγέλων εἰς τὸν κόλπον Ἀβραάμ ‘he was borne by angels to Abraham’s bosom’ or ‘… heaven’ Lk 16:22.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 4). New York: United Bible Societies.

 

[Dave-L]

I think you are calling into question the idea of creeds or systemized theology, altogether not just the idea of limited atonement.
And I agree that some of the theological statements or creeds are a bit errant. However for us to read the Bible and then explain the passages is the same thing. The Creeds and systemized theology is an attempt to understand and explain the message of the scriptures. Where you run into problems is when one forgets the full context, and takes a passage or even a set of passages out of full context. This is where errant ideas such as limited atonement come from.

Limited atonement is biblical. Only Israel had the temple and atonement in the OT. The rest of the nations perished. And only Israel (believers in Christ) have the atonement in the NT. The rest of the world perishes. So Jesus paid only for their sins. If he paid for everyone's sin, none would perish.

 

[garee]

Deuteronomy is a prophecy concerning the Jews in the last days upon the second coming of Christ. It matches up with Hebrews.

Remember Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God is here reigning in the hearts of believers.

If Jesus the Son of man did not go then Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God could not come. Jesus did leave, never to reappear in the flesh again .Some did know Christs by mixing faith when looking at the things seen with the unseen promises .But he had to leave or the comforter would not come .He says we are to known him that way never again . The demonstration is over.

He is here working in us with us .As a kingdom of priest. Men and women (mankind) from all nations. He gives us the honor to search out the matters hid in parables, concealing them from those who have another teaching authority other than all things written in the law and the prophets..The witness of God made up of two making one Perfect law not subject to change by the philosophies of man. ..

We should be careful how we hear, what the Spirits says to the churches, us.

Proverbs 25:2-3 King James Version (KJV) It is the "glory" of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

Called the "golden reed of measure" (measure of faith unseen) in Revelation 21. Or the "hidden manna" in Revelation 2

Why is the heart of the believer that is freely given the unseen understanding is not searchable?

I would think because he does not make the work of Christ's faith working in them that gives the person His understanding without effect. The understanding is not of the person but is of the unseen unfamiliar understanding .That of God. His labor of love working in us, our first love. . the commandment to repent. . . . . comfort one self a work of the comforter.

It as it is written is our defense the freely given faith of Christ working in us to search out the parables. Parables teach us how to walk by faith. A valuable tool when dividing the word of God the method for seeking His approval.. Making the dark glass, clearer, brighter.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Romans 3:3-4

"Mightest overcome when thou art judged." = The unsearchable heart of the bride of Christ, the church.

 

[Bbrdrd]

It says and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. The same thing is being expressed here by John as was in John 1:29. 'Propitiation' means 'atoning sacrifice' and the NIV aptly uses that very wording. Now, who was propitiated? It was not man, but God. God was the one offended. Man offended God, and they had to pay Him for the wrong they committed. Yet, man could not do this. He had no way of repairing the damage incurred by Adam's fall in the Garden. That is why the God-man, the Christ came in the flesh. Man sinned, man must repay. The Christ becomes flesh, lives the sinless, perfect life, that no other man could live. When He was imputed the sins of the ones the Father gave Him, He stood before His Father as a guilty sinner. Remember, He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.[2 Corinthians 5:21] He will forever be the sinless, spotless Lamb of God, but He was reckoned a sinner when He was imputed the elect of God's sins. And God dealt with Him as if it was me or another person. This shows the holiness and righteousness of God. He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?[Romans 8:32] It was the Father who delivered His Son over to those who would mock, spit upon, rip the beard from His face, place a crown of thorns upon His head, and nail to the cross. This is what propitiation is. It makes an actual payment to the Father, and the Father was satisfied with the payment the Son made. If He propitiated God for 'everybody whoever lived' sins, then the Father is satisfied for their payment the Christ made, and all are saved. But we know on the day of judgment many will be cast headlong into an eternal lake of fire.

This is actually a matter of translation,, because the word used does not mean "propitiation" it is a far more neutral term conveying that it is an atoning sacrifice without the pagan associations of appeasement of wrath. In point of fact, the centerpiece to Jesus' sacrifice is the blood which when we look at the Jewish sacrifices the blood was never about wrath that was always associated with the smoke. The blood was a matter of cleansing and restoration, and while Jesus' sacrifice creates the opportunity for reconiciliation God's wrath is dealt with not by punishing an innocent, but through the conviction of the wicked. The very idea that God could not let go our sins without payment is a distortion of what justice is and runs counter to the ethic Jesus showed throughout His life. It splits the Trinity into Jesus who was set to pay for our sins and the Father who could not let them go unless He saw blood of an innocent. Finally, it places an order above God that He was bound to obey and puts him asking us to do something He himself never actually did, forgive injustices against us. The point of the cross is not its justice, but its injustice and that even that God would forgive. It is evidence that the gospel Jesus preached is true, and provision for us to grasp hold of it.