Why Millennialism Remains.

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Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#1
Jan 17, 2020
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#1
The simple answer is, Daniel said the Kingdom of God would arrive in the time of the Roman Empire. Most expected a physical kingdom ushered in by the Messiah. But it did not happen. Jesus did not fit the model. So they thought the 70th week must still be future. The last chance for the Messianic Kingdom in Roman times must happen in a future time and place.

This would mean the Roman Empire must appear in the future. And a Temple complete with sacrifices must appear. So Antichrist, not Jesus (as in the LXX) can stop them. But the kingdom came as Daniel said it would.

The reason nearly all missed it is because the Kingdom is spiritual, not physical as once believed. Jesus taught only the born-again can see it which is not true of a physical kingdom. That it is within believers, another impossibility for a physical kingdom. And it is not of this world which makes it impossible before the end of the world. This was a real game-changer because it meant the Old Testament prophecies were not materialistic, but symbolic depicting spiritual realities.

Elijah was now John the Baptist. The Temple is Jesus, the temple made without hands. Ezekiel’s temple is now a symbol of Christ. The animal sacrifices a symbol for Christ’s atonement. And the promise to Abraham realized through the gospel preached to all nations.

So the main split in Christianity remains between those seeking a future physical kingdom of sight. And those who see the kingdom of faith, as viewed in scripture.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#2
Jan 13, 2016
17,337
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#2
Dave-L said:
The simple answer is, Daniel said the Kingdom of God would arrive in the time of the Roman Empire. Most expected a physical kingdom ushered in by the Messiah. But it did not happen. Jesus did not fit the model. So they thought the 70th week must still be future. The last chance for the Messianic Kingdom in Roman times must happen in a future time and place.

This would mean the Roman Empire must appear in the future. And a Temple complete with sacrifices must appear. So Antichrist, not Jesus (as in the LXX) can stop them. But the kingdom came as Daniel said it would.

The reason nearly all missed it is because the Kingdom is spiritual, not physical as once believed. Jesus taught only the born-again can see it which is not true of a physical kingdom. That it is within believers, another impossibility for a physical kingdom. And it is not of this world which makes it impossible before the end of the world. This was a real game-changer because it meant the Old Testament prophecies were not materialistic, but symbolic depicting spiritual realities.

Elijah was now John the Baptist. The Temple is Jesus, the temple made without hands. Ezekiel’s temple is now a symbol of Christ. The animal sacrifices a symbol for Christ’s atonement. And the promise to Abraham realized through the gospel preached to all nations.

So the main split in Christianity remains between those seeking a future physical kingdom of sight. And those who see the kingdom of faith, as viewed in scripture.
Click to expand...
You have to make:

Jerusalem spiritual
Zion spiritual
David’s throne spiritual
Land spiritual
Earth spiritual
Nations spiritual
The restoration of Israel spiritual
The deliverance of Israel’s enemies spiritual
The kingdoms of this world spiritual
Thrones spiritual
Kings of the earth spiritual

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#3
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#3
John146 said:
You have to make:

Jerusalem spiritual
Zion spiritual
David’s throne spiritual
Land spiritual
Earth spiritual
Nations spiritual
The restoration of Israel spiritual
The deliverance of Israel’s enemies spiritual
The kingdoms of this world spiritual
Thrones spiritual
Kings of the earth spiritual

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Click to expand...
It is spiritual if you look for evidence in the NT. Don't think like the Pharisees and you'll se it.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#4
Jan 13, 2016
17,337
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#4
Dave-L said:
It is spiritual if you look for evidence in the NT. Don't think like the Pharisees and you'll se it.
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If the following is spiritual, then how does it suffer violence and is taken by force? Can the spiritual kingdom be taken by force?

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#5
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#5
John146 said:
If the following is spiritual, then how does it suffer violence and is taken by force? Can the spiritual kingdom be taken by force?

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Click to expand...
The Jews persecuted those in the kingdom, including Jesus as he preached it.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#6
Jan 13, 2016
17,337
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#6
Dave-L said:
The Jews persecuted those in the kingdom, including Jesus as he preached it.
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And they took it by force? The Jews took the spiritual kingdom with violence by force? Lol. Continue to dance around all you want, but what you stated has nothing to do with Matthew 11:12.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#7
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#7
John146 said:
And they took it by force? The Jews took the spiritual kingdom with violence by force? Lol. Continue to dance around all you want, but what you stated has nothing to do with Matthew 11:12.
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Jesus said the kingdom is within you. How else can they take it without taking you?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#8
Jan 13, 2016
17,337
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#8
Dave-L said:
Jesus said the kingdom is within you. How else can they take it without taking you?
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What He said was the kingdom of God is within you. Matthew 11 is concerning the kingdom of heaven, the physical kingdom.

Anyway, no one can take the spiritual kingdom from within you, even by violence. That doesn’t even make good sense.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#9
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#9
John146 said:
What He said was the kingdom of God is within you. Matthew 11 is concerning the kingdom of heaven, the physical kingdom.

Anyway, no one can take the spiritual kingdom from within you, even by violence. That doesn’t even make good sense.
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The kingdom of God and Heaven is exactly the same.
“the kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matt. 4:17) = “the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15)

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 5:3) = “Blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of God” (Luke 6:20)

“Among those born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist, notwithstanding he who is least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than him.” (Matt. 11:11) = “Among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist, but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than him.” (Luke 7:28)

“the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 13:11) = “the mysteries of the kingdom of God” (Mark 4:11 cp. Luke 8:10)

“the kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed” (Matt 13:31) = “the kingdom of God...is like a grain of mustard seed” (Mark 4:30-31 cp. Luke 13:18-19)

“The kingdom of Heaven is like leaven” (Matt. 13:33) = “the kingdom of God...is like leaven” (Luke 13:20)

“Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 18:3-4) = “Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein” (Mark 10:15)

“Allow little children, and do not forbid them to come to me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven.” (Matt. 19:14) = “Allow the little children to come to me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:14 cp. Luke 18:16)

“a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 19:23) = “How hardly shall they who have riches enter into the kingdom of God!” (Luke 18:24)

In other words, “kingdom of God” = “kingdom of Heaven.”
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#10
Jan 13, 2016
17,337
3,733
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#10
Dave-L said:
The kingdom of God and Heaven is exactly the same.
“the kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matt. 4:17) = “the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mark 1:15)

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 5:3) = “Blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of God” (Luke 6:20)

“Among those born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist, notwithstanding he who is least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than him.” (Matt. 11:11) = “Among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist, but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than him.” (Luke 7:28)

“the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 13:11) = “the mysteries of the kingdom of God” (Mark 4:11 cp. Luke 8:10)

“the kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed” (Matt 13:31) = “the kingdom of God...is like a grain of mustard seed” (Mark 4:30-31 cp. Luke 13:18-19)

“The kingdom of Heaven is like leaven” (Matt. 13:33) = “the kingdom of God...is like leaven” (Luke 13:20)

“Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 18:3-4) = “Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein” (Mark 10:15)

“Allow little children, and do not forbid them to come to me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven.” (Matt. 19:14) = “Allow the little children to come to me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:14 cp. Luke 18:16)

“a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 19:23) = “How hardly shall they who have riches enter into the kingdom of God!” (Luke 18:24)

In other words, “kingdom of God” = “kingdom of Heaven.”
Click to expand...
I know all the verses, what you refuse to see is the difference. Both kingdoms were at hand during the earthly ministry of Jesus.

Let’s stick with the verse at hand in Matthew 11. Your first response is not even possible. Come again.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#11
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#11
John146 said:
I know all the verses, what you refuse to see is the difference. Both kingdoms were at hand during the earthly ministry of Jesus.

Let’s stick with the verse at hand in Matthew 11. Your first response is not even possible. Come again.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Click to expand...
They took the kingdom by force when they beheaded John.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#12
Jan 13, 2016
17,337
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#12
Dave-L said:
They took the kingdom by force when they beheaded John.
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They took the spiritual kingdom within John when they beheaded him? John is no longer in the kingdom? Remember, the spiritual kingdom is within you. It’s not something that can be taken by force.

Try again.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#13
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#13
John146 said:
They took the spiritual kingdom within John when they beheaded him? John is no longer in the kingdom? Remember, the spiritual kingdom is within you. It’s not something that can be taken by force.

Try again.
Click to expand...
The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God is everywhere present. But is also in those born again.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#14
Jan 13, 2016
17,337
3,733
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#14
Dave-L said:
The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God is everywhere present. But is also in those born again.
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And by your claim, the spiritual kingdom within you can be taken away by force by the violent. The violent taketh it by force. You have no explanation.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#15
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#15
John146 said:
And by your claim, the spiritual kingdom within you can be taken away by force by the violent. The violent taketh it by force. You have no explanation.
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Can you be taken away by force as a member of the military and the same be said of the military?
 
G

garee

Banned
#16
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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#16
John146 said:
If the following is spiritual, then how does it suffer violence and is taken by force? Can the spiritual kingdom be taken by force?

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Click to expand...
We look to the temporal corrupted in order to give us the spiritual unseen understanding (2 Corinthians 4:18)

Prophecy as the letter of the law "death" takes it by force. We believe prophecy as a kingdom of priest from all the nations

The kingdom is not of here under the Sun. Never was never will. Our birthright and citizenship is not of this corrupted temporal world .

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mathew 11:12-15
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#17
Jan 13, 2016
17,337
3,733
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#17
Dave-L said:
Can you be taken away by force as a member of the military and the same be said of the military?
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Physically, yes. That’s my point. The kingdom of heaven is physical and the violent taketh it by force.

Can another take the spiritual kingdom from within you? Nope.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#18
Jan 13, 2016
17,337
3,733
113
#18
garee said:
We look to the temporal corrupted in order to give us the spiritual unseen understanding (2 Corinthians 4:18)

Prophecy as the letter of the law death takes it by force. We believe prophecy as a kingdom of priest from all the nations

The kingdom is not of here under the Sun. Never was never will. Our birthright and citizenship is not of this corrupted temporal world .

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mathew 11:12-15
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David’s throne is a physical throne in Jerusalem. To make it a spiritual throne violates the rest of Scripture.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#19
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#19
John146 said:
Physically, yes. That’s my point. The kingdom of heaven is physical and the violent taketh it by force.

Can another take the spiritual kingdom from within you? Nope.
Click to expand...
Jesus says the kingdom is within you. How cant it fill the universe and be physical?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#20
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#20
John146 said:
David’s throne is a physical throne in Jerusalem. To make it a spiritual throne violates the rest of Scripture.
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Not according to Acts. How can Jesus sit on David's throne while David is buried and the resurrection is on the last day?
 
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