Is this your belief regarding Galatians 3:27 as well?
"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Does baptismal regeneration violate the core teaching of justification by faith alone (sola fide)?
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"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Right. What makes you wrong is your doctrines. What your belligerence does do is make you unpleasant to correspond with.
Jesus is neither milquetoast, effeminate, nor traditional, but he is most certainly a proponent of free will.If you only like to listen to milquetoast, effeminate, freewiller, Sunday school teacher traditionalists, you might put me on ignore.
I have about 45 years under my belt, and I am convinced from my study of the scriptures that Calvinism is utterly false.
Gen 3:22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Man knows both good and evil, and can distinguish between them, and can choose to do good. It is good to believe the Gospel and become saved.
Deut 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
People can choose between life and death.
Josh 24:15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
We CHOOSE whom we will serve. The offer of salvation is extended to everyone. It's why we are to preach the Gospel, so people can hear it and have the chance to believe it.
There are many other scripture that prove people have free will. Acts 2:37-38; 16:30-31; Rom 10:9; Eph 1:13-14; 1 Tim 2:4; 1 Pet 3:9; and more.
That's too bad.
Isn't that exactly what you do, insist that it's your way or the highway? It would help considerably if you didn't erect so many strawman arguments just so you can knock them down and think you're right.
Good luck with your faith. I hope it gets you where you want to be.
That is correct.
Some object to taking Romans 6:3 as Spirit baptism because that verse speaks of being “baptized into Christ” whereas 1 Corinthians 12:13 speaks of Spirit baptism placing the believer into Christ’s body. Of course, both are true: the believer is “baptized” (placed into) Christ and also into the body of Christ, and both are done by the Holy Spirit.
Others take Romans 6:3 to refer to water baptism, but the problem with that is that it seems to suggest that baptism saves. However, the New Testament consistently denies baptismal regeneration, presenting water baptism as a public attestation to an accomplished spiritual work (e.g., Acts 10:44–48; 16:29–33). The spiritual reality Paul spoke of is that by faith believers are “baptized (placed) into Christ” and thereby are united and identified with Him. This spiritual reality is then graphically witnessed to and pictured by believers’ baptism in water. The one baptism (by water) is the visible picture of the spiritual truth of the other baptism (identification with Christ; Gal. 3:27, “baptized into Christ … clothed with Christ”).
You need to read in context.
For example, Deuteronomy 30 cannot be read out of context with the rest of Deuteronomy.
While Moses commanded that Israel choose to follow God, he plainly indicate that Israel did not have the spiritual equipment to do this, and prophesied about a day when they would have this spiritual equipment:
Deuteronomy 29:4 4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear
(ESV)
Deuteronomy 30:6 6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
(ESV)
Deuteronomy 30:15-20 15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
(ESV)
By the way, you will find this theme throughout Scripture. So, quoting the Scriptures you referred to simply won't prove your point.
God commands obedience. This command informs the sinner that he falls far short of God's righteous commands and needs God's grace. Then, the Holy Spirit gives spiritual life through the receipt of a new heart that produces faith and repentance in this man, who has been informed of God's righteous demands.
So, in essence, you have a disconnected view of salvation that actually resembles Pelagianism. You think unsaved man already has what he needs to respond to God, and he does not. He is spiritually dead. He cannot come forth into spiritual life until God enables this response by giving him a new heart. He responds in faith and repentance, and is united with Christ at that point. This union justifies him, because God views him legally as one with Christ, sharing his righteousness. Additionally, due to his union with Christ, he begins to produce spiritual fruit, just like a branch produces fruit because it is now joined with the vine.
And, that is why mankind cannot boast about his salvation.
By the way, I know my view is correct. It all fits together well. Other views are defective. It is defective to claim that a man who has not received a new heart can produce spiritual fruit, including faith and repentance. This is the ONLY WAY a spiritually dead man can produce this fruit.
But, this would mean that God causes salvation from beginning to end, which is something a free-willer simply will not accept. He hates this view because it puts everyone at God's mercy and his sovereign grace.
I suggest that folks read these verses and take them SERIOUSLY. They are very plain...and free-willers must work really hard to explain their way around them. They show clearly that the unsaved man is spiritually dead, and that he requires a spiritual resurrection (being raised and made alive again). They also show that the whole package regarding salvation is something God gives, including the faith, and that it is not their doing; it is God's doing.
Notice that when it comes down to it, these guys will give themselves the credit, and not God..that ultimately is what happened. For example, Leighton Flowers, their most prominent defender, claims that God chooses those who ultimately believe because they are "choice meats" and deserve salvation, basically. They are someone who is attractive to God, so God chooses them based on some characteristics they have which are positive...but a simple reading of 1 Cor 1:26ff refutes this. God chooses weak people to make his glory more apparent. he is like the star athlete who chooses the fat, clumsy kids who can't walk very far without falling on their face, in order to make his grace and power more evident. He doesn't choose the "choice meats" like Leighton Flowers claims.
Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)
1 Corinthians 1:26-31 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
(ESV)
(continued)
By the way, another thing they do is simply deny that God chooses. They will twist the Scriptures around, in some way, to claim that God didn't choose at all..man chooses himself. That is the net effect of their explanations. They might as well say the Bible contains errors, but they can't do that, so they twist Scripture and words around to make the claim that God doesn't choose at all.
I'm not buying it. I didn't buy it when I was a teenager simply reading the Bible. I don't buy it now, either, as a 57 year old. See, I don't try to overwrite Scripture with my sensitivities, or my free-willer Sunday school indoctrination, or any other thing...I simply read Scripture, in context, to determine what it says.
And, Reformed theology is faithful to this. If the Bible says that God has elected a particular people, whom he has given to the Son, who redeemed them on the Cross, and whom God the Spirit applies redemption to, infallibly, I believe it.
I would suggest reading Five Points of Calvinism by David Steele to see the Scriptural support for this, although I have provided it on a number of threads associated with radical corruption, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and preservation of the Holy Spirit. It is abundantly clear that God has an elect group of believers, who he has given to his Son, and their salvation is predestined and infallibly applied by the Holy Spirit. Free-willer theology simply cannot address this issue and Leighton and his boys might as well give up on it.
By the way, another thing they do is simply deny that God chooses. They will twist the Scriptures around, in some way, to claim that God didn't choose at all..man chooses himself. That is the net effect of their explanations. They might as well say the Bible contains errors, but they can't do that, so they twist Scripture and words around to make the claim that God doesn't choose at all.
I'm not buying it. I didn't buy it when I was a teenager simply reading the Bible. I don't buy it now, either, as a 57 year old. See, I don't try to overwrite Scripture with my sensitivities, or my free-willer Sunday school indoctrination, or any other thing...I simply read Scripture, in context, to determine what it says.
And, Reformed theology is faithful to this. If the Bible says that God has elected a particular people, whom he has given to the Son, who redeemed them on the Cross, and whom God the Spirit applies redemption to, infallibly, I believe it.
I would suggest reading Five Points of Calvinism by David Steele to see the Scriptural support for this, although I have provided it on a number of threads associated with radical corruption, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and preservation of the Holy Spirit. It is abundantly clear that God has an elect group of believers, who he has given to his Son, and their salvation is predestined and infallibly applied by the Holy Spirit. Free-willer theology simply cannot address this issue and Leighton and his boys might as well give up on it.
I hold the conviction that salvation is the work of the Triune God. The Father elects certain individuals to give to his Son, the Son redeemed them on the Cross, and the Holy Spirit applies this redemption in time. God the Holy Spirit regenerates the sinner, giving him a new heart of flesh to replace his cold, stony dead heart, and this heart of flesh produces faith and repentance.
I reject the popular, dominant, free-willer teaching that fallen man can produce faith and repentance from the recesses of his cold, stony, dead heart, in order to receive a heart of flesh. Their view is backwards and gives occasion for man to boast about his salvation. Scripture is clear in teaching that no man can boast due to the fact that regeneration precedes faith and repentance. See Ephesians 2:1-10.
I believe their weak view of God's sovereignty in man's salvation fails to give Him his proper glory, and does not give the elect the assurance that God intends for them related to the teachings of election, predestination, and preservation. I will not dishonor God by accepting their impotent god, and accepting their attempts to dominate me. That might work in their free-willer, traditionalist, religionist Sunday school environment but not with me.
Realize that their arguments are essentially the same arguments that Pelagius made. Here is one: God commands mankind's obedience. Therefore, man is morally able to obey God.
However, they are wrong. God commands the impossible from man: that he can morally obey God. This should lead the man to realize that he needs God's grace in order to fulfill God's righteous commands. Grace is more than simple forgiveness; it is divine enablement. He needs a heart of flesh to obey God, even in the matter of faith and repentance. This is why Reformed theology teaches that being born-again actually precedes faith and repentance. Yet, all free-willers firmly deny this, because it seems backwards to them. That is because they don't believe man is spiritually dead, and morally unable to obey God. God actually commands obedience to show man that he is spiritually dead and unable to respond to God. So, yes, it is totally coherent that God commands something that the unregenerate man cannot perform.
They also deny that the unregenerate man is a slave to sin, even though Scripture plainly teaches it (read all of John 8 and Romans 6). Martin Luther wrote his most important book, On the Bondage of the Will, for this very reason. It is my conviction that free-willers, which include many on this forum, are basically Roman Catholic in their views, at best. I say "at best" because some are Pelagian, and even Roman Catholicism rejected that horrible teaching.
Additionally, realize that I have placed a number of individuals on ignore for different reasons. One reason would be that I have explained my position on an issue, and they simply reject it and continue to press their theology with me. At some point in time, it is worthless for me to engage them, because we disagree on that topic. So, if you see me failing to respond to someone, that is the likely reason. Beating dead horses is not a productive use of my time. I suppose that was Jesus' thought behind telling his followers not to cast pearls before swine.
I reject the popular, dominant, free-willer teaching that fallen man can produce faith and repentance from the recesses of his cold, stony, dead heart, in order to receive a heart of flesh. Their view is backwards and gives occasion for man to boast about his salvation. Scripture is clear in teaching that no man can boast due to the fact that regeneration precedes faith and repentance. See Ephesians 2:1-10.
I believe their weak view of God's sovereignty in man's salvation fails to give Him his proper glory, and does not give the elect the assurance that God intends for them related to the teachings of election, predestination, and preservation. I will not dishonor God by accepting their impotent god, and accepting their attempts to dominate me. That might work in their free-willer, traditionalist, religionist Sunday school environment but not with me.
Realize that their arguments are essentially the same arguments that Pelagius made. Here is one: God commands mankind's obedience. Therefore, man is morally able to obey God.
However, they are wrong. God commands the impossible from man: that he can morally obey God. This should lead the man to realize that he needs God's grace in order to fulfill God's righteous commands. Grace is more than simple forgiveness; it is divine enablement. He needs a heart of flesh to obey God, even in the matter of faith and repentance. This is why Reformed theology teaches that being born-again actually precedes faith and repentance. Yet, all free-willers firmly deny this, because it seems backwards to them. That is because they don't believe man is spiritually dead, and morally unable to obey God. God actually commands obedience to show man that he is spiritually dead and unable to respond to God. So, yes, it is totally coherent that God commands something that the unregenerate man cannot perform.
They also deny that the unregenerate man is a slave to sin, even though Scripture plainly teaches it (read all of John 8 and Romans 6). Martin Luther wrote his most important book, On the Bondage of the Will, for this very reason. It is my conviction that free-willers, which include many on this forum, are basically Roman Catholic in their views, at best. I say "at best" because some are Pelagian, and even Roman Catholicism rejected that horrible teaching.
Additionally, realize that I have placed a number of individuals on ignore for different reasons. One reason would be that I have explained my position on an issue, and they simply reject it and continue to press their theology with me. At some point in time, it is worthless for me to engage them, because we disagree on that topic. So, if you see me failing to respond to someone, that is the likely reason. Beating dead horses is not a productive use of my time. I suppose that was Jesus' thought behind telling his followers not to cast pearls before swine.
This is funny, to all of us, we always think our view is the correct one, so that statement is redundant.
It is evident that studying our Hebrew history is necessary. Here's a note on this verse from the authors of the Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible published by Zondervan.
3:27 baptized into Christ ... clothed yourselves with Christ. Everyone would understand Paul's images. Jewish teachers normally expected Gentiles converting to Judaism to be baptized so they could join God's people; these converts were baptized naked and could then be reclothed after the baptism. Jewish writers could speak of being "clothed" with the Spirit or virtues.
Ro 6:3 is water baptism, and water baptism does save.
1Pe 3:21
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
I believe I first learned the name of David Pawson from one of your posts, so thank you for mentioning his name. His video on water baptism is quite helpful.
Then explain to me how the thief on the cross was saved? Or the paralytic? (mark 2:5) "Child, your sins are forgiven"
There are just too many examples of salvation before (or without) water baptism.
Not only are there 3 baptisms. But these 3 are foreshadowed in the OT, pointing towards what would be available for us today. God is amazing!
I have. How was Saul's baptism a public attestation or a mere symbol (Acts 9:17-19)? How about the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:34-40)?
In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we read that by one Spirit we are baptized into one body.. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism. So in what sense would believers be water baptized into Christ? Would it be in the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" in 1 Corinthians 10:2? In regards to identification?
Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses.
So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO. Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) *NOT through faith AND water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, NOT through water baptism.
"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:12,14). This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism according to your argument, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved after baptism as well (Romans 13:14) according to your logic using Galatians 3:27. Let's be consistent.
Well Jews hated Gentiles so it would seem that the humiliation factor here was front and center.
Christ dwells not on the outside but in our hearts. The Holy Spirit fills our being and cleanses us from the inside out. Water can only wash the outside.
If you study the Greek you will find most of these passages use the Greek word for baptism that indicates a continuous baptism which is not possible with water.
Acts 8 is the clearest demonstration of water baptism and it clearly shows water baptism is for believers only. Believers not to be saved but because they are already saved.
For the cause of Christ
Roger