Jesus Christ wants his believer to reach perfection and become completely sinless
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But you are still sinful or you would not die. The wages of sin is death. Also, you are sinful because your flesh remains wicked until the earth destroys it. And it tempts you to do evil. But if born again, you can walk in the Spirit and stop sin at the temptation stage and avoid sinning.
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Matthew 7:
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord...[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine...[26]...and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [27] And the rain descended...and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Those who work iniquity are continuing in sin while professing Christ. These think that they are in good standing with the Lord even though they continue to work iniquity. Also, These same “believers” do not perform the sayings of Jesus, like:
Love your enemies.
If someone takes your belongings, let them have it.
If someone smites you, don’t fight back.
Give to anyone who asks of you.
They also do not obey what his apostles wrote (especially the church ordinances).
I pray these type of believers will repent before the judge delivers them to the officer, who will then deliver them to the torementor (Matthew 18:34).
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord...[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine...[26]...and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [27] And the rain descended...and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Those who work iniquity are continuing in sin while professing Christ. These think that they are in good standing with the Lord even though they continue to work iniquity. Also, These same “believers” do not perform the sayings of Jesus, like:
Love your enemies.
If someone takes your belongings, let them have it.
If someone smites you, don’t fight back.
Give to anyone who asks of you.
They also do not obey what his apostles wrote (especially the church ordinances).
I pray these type of believers will repent before the judge delivers them to the officer, who will then deliver them to the torementor (Matthew 18:34).
We are constantly being forgiven our sins and they are being wiped away, so in the eyes of God we are sinners who are deemed Sinless..
Isaiah 1: KJV
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
So on this earth we sin and are as red as scarlet or red as Crimson.. But at the same time to God we are as white as snow..
The doctrine being pushed by the opening poster is that people can become white as snow in this life and that becoming a Saint is a process of our works supported by God ,, But as you see nearly all the Christians here reject that doctrine and i do also.. I became a Saint on the day that i believed Jesus and trusted in the Atonement he secured on the cross for my salvation..
So in conclusion we are and shall be on the day of judgement Deemed to be sinless if we persevere in believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for our salvation..
Isaiah 1: KJV
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
So on this earth we sin and are as red as scarlet or red as Crimson.. But at the same time to God we are as white as snow..
The doctrine being pushed by the opening poster is that people can become white as snow in this life and that becoming a Saint is a process of our works supported by God ,, But as you see nearly all the Christians here reject that doctrine and i do also.. I became a Saint on the day that i believed Jesus and trusted in the Atonement he secured on the cross for my salvation..
So in conclusion we are and shall be on the day of judgement Deemed to be sinless if we persevere in believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for our salvation..
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right
that is our 'position' in Christ. because of the sinless blood of Christ, God accepts us in our present state, as though we had not sinned...and our sins no longer separate us from God
however, for all practical purposes, we do still sin....and it is not that hard to do. even thoughts might condemn us or if we have hatred or murder in our hearts, we do not have to physically carry out an act...BUT we know that God is faithful and true and forgives our sin as John states
but you are right. the current spiritual reality is forgiven before God and acceptable to come into His presence. people get hung up on sin...I know I've done that...but came to a different understanding when I studied the subject. we do not get saved over and over like some seem to think...but the blood of Christ continually washes away our sin and that is God's provision for us
Paul starts off most of his letters calling the people he has sent them to, saints...not sinners!
even to the Corinthians he writes:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
we would have no authority in the name of Jesus if we were still being seen as sinners who continually needed to repent and start over
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You are not considering the natural man's condition, before he has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor 2:15. Until he has been born and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Eph 2, he cannot discern the things of the Spirit. He cannot repent of breaking a spiritual law, if he does not understand spiritual laws. He cannot understand a preacher, preaching about a gospel that explains spiritual things. He only has faith in man, and not spiritual faith, that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Gal 5.
God does not have to have man's permission to save him eternally. Rom 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good (who do they work together for good for [them that love God}) to them that are the called, according to his purpose. Verse 29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren, verse 30 - Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Was all mankind called? Was all mankind justified? Was all mankind glorified?
If mankind has to give God permission to save him eternally, why does Daniel 4:35 say, "And he doeth his will in the army of heaven, and AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH; and none can stay his hand (give him permission), or say unto him, What doest thou?
I believe that the scriptures teach that God did, indeed, give mankind a free choice to choose how he wants to live his life as he sojourns here on earth, but mankind's eternal deliverance is determined by God's sovereign grace, without the permission of mankind,
God does not have to have man's permission to save him eternally. Rom 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good (who do they work together for good for [them that love God}) to them that are the called, according to his purpose. Verse 29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren, verse 30 - Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Was all mankind called? Was all mankind justified? Was all mankind glorified?
If mankind has to give God permission to save him eternally, why does Daniel 4:35 say, "And he doeth his will in the army of heaven, and AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH; and none can stay his hand (give him permission), or say unto him, What doest thou?
I believe that the scriptures teach that God did, indeed, give mankind a free choice to choose how he wants to live his life as he sojourns here on earth, but mankind's eternal deliverance is determined by God's sovereign grace, without the permission of mankind,
We are sinless as far as our security of heaven is concerned, but we, as Paul said, still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature. Before we were born again we only had one nature, whitch was our fleshly nature but after we have been born again, we have two natures, our fleshly nature, and our spiritual nature. These two natures war inside us as explained by Paul in Gal 5:17.
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Very true. We even as Christians recognize our sinful nature even though one would think being a new creation would overide that nature. We are prone to see ourselves as unworthy lowly sinners dressed in rags and yet he calls us kings and queens clothed in royalty and clean pure and made worthy in the blood of Jesus.
The thing is and trust me I know I am a hypocrite about this I think that while being aware of our human nature we should see ourselves through his eyes not ours. there is a huge difference between being humble and just putting ourselves down.
I don't think he would have said these things about us if he didn't want us to believe it
The thing is and trust me I know I am a hypocrite about this I think that while being aware of our human nature we should see ourselves through his eyes not ours. there is a huge difference between being humble and just putting ourselves down.
I don't think he would have said these things about us if he didn't want us to believe it
There are three parts to man.Spirit Soul and Body.Paul wrote that because of the mercies of GOD(which Is spiritual) that we should present our bodies a LIVING sacrifice.
And he also wrote I delight In the law of GOD after the Inward man,talking about his mind but he wrote I see another law,warring against the law of my mind and bringing me Into captivity to the law of sin which In my flesh.
So then If you are looking at things from mans view which Is according to appearances then no man could say you have unforgivin sin but GOD looks straight at your heart motivation and the person would have to relate In truth.
So then In the spirit you were created new,GODs workmanship but In the flesh everyone sins talking about not only deeds but Thoughts also.Hmm they must not be counting thoughts as a necessity to be Perfect.
So then before getting saved the person Is a sinner needing a savoir and after getting the person Was a sinner but JESUS saved them and now they are the Righteousness of GOD.
And he also wrote I delight In the law of GOD after the Inward man,talking about his mind but he wrote I see another law,warring against the law of my mind and bringing me Into captivity to the law of sin which In my flesh.
So then If you are looking at things from mans view which Is according to appearances then no man could say you have unforgivin sin but GOD looks straight at your heart motivation and the person would have to relate In truth.
So then In the spirit you were created new,GODs workmanship but In the flesh everyone sins talking about not only deeds but Thoughts also.Hmm they must not be counting thoughts as a necessity to be Perfect.
So then before getting saved the person Is a sinner needing a savoir and after getting the person Was a sinner but JESUS saved them and now they are the Righteousness of GOD.
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Amen proper perspective...
a. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceived and the truth is not in us <--John pens this, he was saved, immersed, an Apostle, writes 5 books of the bible and includes himself in the present tense.
b. Daniel was identified as one of three that could deliver himself by his own righteousness..IF IT WAS POSSIBLE <--He confessed present sin
c. Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more <--written to saved members of a N.T. church
NONE ARE SINLESS in this life, forgiven, covered, saved and in a position of grace, but NOT SINLESS in the flesh!
a. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceived and the truth is not in us <--John pens this, he was saved, immersed, an Apostle, writes 5 books of the bible and includes himself in the present tense.
b. Daniel was identified as one of three that could deliver himself by his own righteousness..IF IT WAS POSSIBLE <--He confessed present sin
c. Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more <--written to saved members of a N.T. church
NONE ARE SINLESS in this life, forgiven, covered, saved and in a position of grace, but NOT SINLESS in the flesh!
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An awareness of our human state should not prevent us from giving our entire selves to Christ, and to strive the best we can for being without sin. We can glory in our state of being forgiven and our sins forgotten through Christ. There is a difference between bragging about our perfection and saying poor me, I am a sinner so why try to follow Christ. It is the difference between loving sin and loving Christ.
Exactly well said
By all means he could force us to do his will and force us to love him but he treasures a willing child not a controlled one. After all what good is it if to force puppets to do your will and to love you if there is so much more value and beauty in a child who loves you and follows you willingly?
By all means he could force us to do his will and force us to love him but he treasures a willing child not a controlled one. After all what good is it if to force puppets to do your will and to love you if there is so much more value and beauty in a child who loves you and follows you willingly?-
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Exactly well said By all means he could force us to do his will and force us to love him but he treasures a willing child not a controlled one. After all what good is it if to force puppets to do your will and to love you if there is so much more value and beauty in a child who loves you and follows you willingly?
By all means he could force us to do his will and force us to love him but he treasures a willing child not a controlled one. After all what good is it if to force puppets to do your will and to love you if there is so much more value and beauty in a child who loves you and follows you willingly?
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For the sake of the listener there may be a way to say It that hopefully sheds light to the listener bringing unity and a good report would be Instead of saying you Can walk In the Spirit Is to say those that have been born again of the SPIRIT of GOD WILL walk In the SPIRIT of GOD and their Spirit was made perfect by GOD and sealed and cannot sin.
The flesh however can and does sin which Paul wrote about when he wrote
Romans 7:13-21
King James Version
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
The flesh however can and does sin which Paul wrote about when he wrote
Romans 7:13-21
King James Version
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
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No real Christian can be at peace with his sin.
However, this is not to say that real Christians have overcome all the sins of their lives. Some struggle horribly with the same sins for many years.
The real issue is whether they are united with Christ. It is union with Christ that produces spiritual fruit.
By the way, there are also many who are not united with Christ who claim they are virtually sinless. They don't produce spiritual fruit, while externally they may seem to be righteous. Such were the Pharisees, and many other religionists in the professing Christian church.
They are seekers of self-glory, and have little regard for God's glory.
And, of course, there are antinomians in the Church who deny the need for obedience. Those who belong to Christ will produce spiritual fruit, but not on our schedule. We aren't the gardener; Jesus is.
In the Church, we have Pelagians who claim that they are sinless, or virtually sinless, but in reality they are not joined to Christ, and do not produce spiritual fruit. They are self-deceived deceivers. Jesse Morrell and Jed Smock are just a few of these.
However, this is not to say that real Christians have overcome all the sins of their lives. Some struggle horribly with the same sins for many years.
The real issue is whether they are united with Christ. It is union with Christ that produces spiritual fruit.
By the way, there are also many who are not united with Christ who claim they are virtually sinless. They don't produce spiritual fruit, while externally they may seem to be righteous. Such were the Pharisees, and many other religionists in the professing Christian church.
They are seekers of self-glory, and have little regard for God's glory.
And, of course, there are antinomians in the Church who deny the need for obedience. Those who belong to Christ will produce spiritual fruit, but not on our schedule. We aren't the gardener; Jesus is.
In the Church, we have Pelagians who claim that they are sinless, or virtually sinless, but in reality they are not joined to Christ, and do not produce spiritual fruit. They are self-deceived deceivers. Jesse Morrell and Jed Smock are just a few of these.
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Exactly well said By all means he could force us to do his will and force us to love him but he treasures a willing child not a controlled one. After all what good is it if to force puppets to do your will and to love you if there is so much more value and beauty in a child who loves you and follows you willingly?
By all means he could force us to do his will and force us to love him but he treasures a willing child not a controlled one. After all what good is it if to force puppets to do your will and to love you if there is so much more value and beauty in a child who loves you and follows you willingly?
However, Reformed theology teaches that God gives the unsaved person a new nature that wants to please and obey God, and this new nature governs their behavior.
The nature that the person possessed before salvation, called being "in Adam", is fundamentally sinful and leads to sinful choices, whereas the new nature, which is called being "in Christ", is fundamentally righteous and leads to righteous choices.
Of course, I am not claiming that the former nature, being "in Adam", is incapable of any positive virtues at the carnal level, but the unsaved person is disconnected from the life of God, and is spiritually dead, and cannot produce spiritual fruit.
Anyways, the analogy of a puppet would not describe the Reformed view, because Reformed believe that decisions are reflective of the person's fundamental nature, which is either "in Adam" or "in Christ".
And all of this is totally biblical. Scripture says that unsaved people are slaves to sin, and that is because they have a fallen nature. Do they exercise some type of "free will" in their decisions? Yes, but it is a free will that is constrained by the fallen nature.
I realize you might not even be talking about Reformed theology but I just wanted to add a few thoughts
Exactly well said By all means he could force us to do his will and force us to love him but he treasures a willing child not a controlled one. After all what good is it if to force puppets to do your will and to love you if there is so much more value and beauty in a child who loves you and follows you willingly?
By all means he could force us to do his will and force us to love him but he treasures a willing child not a controlled one. After all what good is it if to force puppets to do your will and to love you if there is so much more value and beauty in a child who loves you and follows you willingly?
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