Not By Works

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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But the main thing is, you're missing the 800 pound gorilla in the room.
The free gift really was given and it really was taken back.
And Jesus said that's how it is in the kingdom of heaven and how the Father will treat each of us.
But osas is sure the Father never, ever takes back free gifts.
in re: the debt of the wicked servant having been forgiven:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(2 Corinthians 5:19)
we've still got this. to deal with. the whole world has reconciliation to God through Christ, the whole world not having their debt imputed to them.
so the ungrateful man in Matthew 18 has his debt forgiven. he hears the good news. he does not take it to heart or put it into practice.
does this make him a part of the unbelieving world - who does have reconciliation and forgiveness, but who rejects it? or make him a believer?
your premise is that he represents one of Christ's sheep, because he has had his debt canceled. but Christ atoned for all the sin of the world - so we have to deal with limited vs. universal atonement. we've got to deal with tasting death for every man vs. bearing the sins of many.



"all that debt I did forgive thee, seeing thou didst call upon me" - Matthew 18:32 YLT

So the Master forgave the debt because the servant wanted time to pay it back?
What kind of logic is that?
Tell me how that even translates into the actual truths the parable represents?
Does this mean people who ask for more time to pay God back actually get the debt forgiven altogether instead?
What gospel is that?

If that was any part of the gospel message every works salvationist working to pay the debt owed to the Master would be saved, not condemned.
i agree, what kind of logic is that! the gospel turns human reasoning on its head.
but the facts are that this is what Jesus says the man said: have patience, i will pay it all back.
he didn't ask for the debt to be erased. he asked for time to pay it himself.
the master took pity on him, and offered full reconciliation 'because he pleaded' -- but when we go look at the record that God gives us of his pleading, it doesn't include having his debt forgiven, at all.

now, you can say Jesus gave a deceptively incomplete account of what this man actually begged for. in Jesus' own parable.
i am not going to say that. i am going to say, Jesus spoke this perfectly. and being perfect, the details are significant.
you can keep trying to make verse 32 say he asked for forgiveness, but i'm going to keep pointing at vv. 26-27 and telling you, he did not; the Master gave him something far more precious than what he asked. yes he begged the master. no he didn't beg for forgiveness. he begged for time. he begged for a prolonged opportunity to achieve reconciliation of his debt all by himself.

whether he was really planning to do that, whether he really thought he'd come up with 20 billion by shaking down hundreds of millions of other servants for $150 at a time, is another question -- i'm going to say no, he plotted to escape his lord, to murder his lord, to usurp his place.

not unlike Israel, hoping the Messiah would usher in an earthly kingdom. but the Messiah brought a spiritual kingdom, of far more worth than what the Jews were looking for. a spiritual kingdom they rejected.
and not unlike Judas, being an apostle, having the destiny to deliver over the Son of Man to death. Jesus knew this from the beginning, and chose him. do you think Judas is an example of receiving salvation and losing it? a true sheep turning into a goat?
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
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North Carolina
I never said the thread is satanic, I said in a moment of weakness we can all be instruments of death. There are only two choices in life; one you are adding to the Kingdom of God and the other is death / Satan. No grey area. If I read some of the replies on this thread I can’t always see Jesus… Jesus did not run away after he rebuked Peter. If you want me to run away you can get somebody to ban me.

You need to read your post again. However, makes no difference to me because you still have the choice to stay or leave. But do not place everyone on here into a lump. I have no desire for you to "run away" as that would be your own personal choice. Just don't place everyone into the same basket.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
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North Carolina
Guess you missed that part about "...in Christ's power..." huh?

I finally figured it out...You OSAS folks think salvation grants divine status...that we become Omnipresent, right?

OSAS essentially says I can simultaneously walk further and further away from God while remaining safe and secure in the palm of His hand. :p

You slander people with such as the above. OSAS represents one thing: Accepting Christ Jesus as Our Lord and Savior and by that act we receive the gift of God through the Blood of Jesus which gives us eternal salvation and the Seal of the Holy Spirit. You add words to what we believe and twist them to suit your agenda. No where does any believer in the one and only act of eternal salvation believe the words you say. BTW, do you ever examine your own mind and heart? You know like: Love thy neighbor as thyself, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, Judge not, least you be judged.
 
Apr 3, 2019
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I think the point of the wicked servant is Jesus is using the parable in a analogous form to explain this:

(Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses)

Our "debt" to God is great, but if we don't forgive the small "debt" that our brothers ask to be "released" from then....

No need to over examine it.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
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Guess you missed that part about "...in Christ's power..." huh?

I finally figured it out...You OSAS folks think salvation grants divine status...that we become Omnipresent, right?

OSAS essentially says I can simultaneously walk further and further away from God while remaining safe and secure in the palm of His hand. :p
More blathering. Come on man, I thought you were genuine with regards to understanding we are saved by grace through faith.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
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Unbelief would mean no salvation. One has to believe in order to become saved. Can't accept Christ without belief.
His argument is if someone believes in Jesus at one point in their life then no longer believes, they lose their salvation. Thus it’s better to only share the Gospel with folks on their deathbed or everyone should commit suicide upon having faith in Jesus so as to eliminate the possibility of outliving you’re faith in Him. Oh yeah, don’t forget works.
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
113
North Carolina
His argument is if someone believes in Jesus at one point in their life then no longer believes, they lose their salvation. Thus it’s better to only share the Gospel with folks on their deathbed or everyone should commit suicide upon having faith in Jesus so as to eliminate the possibility of outliving you’re faith in Him. Oh yeah, don’t forget works.

He preaches a false doctrine. Wonder what he'll say to Christ about "oophs, I didn't hold onto the salvation you gave me as a free gift."
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
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He preaches a false doctrine. Wonder what he'll say to Christ about "oophs, I didn't hold onto the salvation you gave me as a free gift."
I think his heart is in the right place in that he honors Jesus, but sadly he has things twisted. He puts too much “self” into salvation.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
What, he who has not the Son, still has life? I keep telling you there's no Spiritual Switzerland.

Let me clarify....

There is only one fate for anyone who ceases to abide in Jesus: spiritual death and a subsequent eternal death.
False

"He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son hath not life".
TRUE
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
It is not I who adds, but you who subtracts.
Even a blind man can see what Jesus is saying is that just as a branch separated from the Vine cannot survive, let alone bear fruit, and is good for nothing but the fire, so the consequence is the same for a saint who separates himself from God.

You seem to think the branch made of asbestos and has a PPO with an "accidental dismemberment" rider.
Oh really, sometimes fire is just fire.
He does not state or make a clear connection to the Lake of Fire... you add to the text.

Do you think Jesus is so unclear and imprecise with His words.

No.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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You need to read your post again. However, makes no difference to me because you still have the choice to stay or leave. But do not place everyone on here into a lump. I have no desire for you to "run away" as that would be your own personal choice. Just don't place everyone into the same basket.
The thing is, I didn't put anybody in a basket. I said we are all guilty of over reacting sometime.

For some people the trigger word is grace, for other it is law :)

God bless
 
Nov 16, 2019
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Gentiles will be cut off when the fullness has come in, when God sees that the Gentiles are no longer believing the gospel. Why continue to reap when there’s nothing left to reap?

Continuing in his kindness?
But he's warning believers who stand by faith that this will happen to them if they do not continue in God's kindness. If it means what you say it means then he should be addressing unbelievers, not believers. But as it is, the warning is to the believers who stand by faith and that they will be cut out of the tree if they do not continue in the grace of God's kindness.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Not sure what you mean by the law of Christ.
I know this will get me in hot water again....

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

The law is about Christ, and is a shadow of things to come. So in my view Moses wrote the law as received from God.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I know this will get me in hot water again....

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

The law is about Christ, and is a shadow of things to come. So in my view Moses wrote the law as received from God.
I still do not understand ... are you referring to the 613 laws?

Are you stating we are under those laws?