A new look at Colossians 2:16

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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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#61
Romans 14

If what one does is to honor THE LORD...they do NOT sin...it is when those who claim to be more spiritual, question these who look to their stronger older brothers as more steadfast, that we become a stumbling block for them and raise doubt in their mind about what they are doing.

Now, they can no longer do it because their conscience is no longer clear...
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#62
I imagine the apostles did still keep the Sabbath, being Jewish... but several first century historians wrote about the church, and described how they gathered together on the first day of the week.
So, as Jews, they still respected and "kept" the sabbath, but gathering together to worship and fellowship with other believers under the new covenant was on Sunday... apparently from the beginning.
Yes, and it should be noted that Jesus' post-resurrection appearances, when the day was specified, were on Sunday.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#63
This verse should take on a lot new meaning in light of the Covid crisis. A lot of the Church is holed up in their homes and forced to meet online. Others are defying distancing recommendations--and at times even orders--to meet in person, and hug one another. I am not saying either party is wrong (nor will I).

I am also confused what's going on with Seventh Day Adventists, in light of this? All this time they were intent on telling us how much we were in sin because we don't meet on Saturday. Then this whole Covid crisis comes, and I'm not hearing any stories of SDA's meeting at all? So...meeting on Sunday is not okay, but not meeting at all is okay?
They would observe the Sabbath at home probably.

The funny thing about the SDAs is that they believe the mark of the Beast is Sunday observance, or it will be once the Roman Catholics or their patrons declare Sunday observance to be mandatory. It seems like they would prefer that a professed believer meets on no day, rather than Sunday.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#65
I imagine the apostles did still keep the Sabbath, being Jewish... but several first century historians wrote about the church, and described how they gathered together on the first day of the week.
So, as Jews, they still respected and "kept" the sabbath, but gathering together to worship and fellowship with other believers under the new covenant was on Sunday... apparently from the beginning.
Agreed. There are two references in scripture about them meeting on the first day of the week. This seems to be the reason for it's continued practice by the early church writers. And in my opinion John in Rev 1 did not mean Sunday when he said he was in the Spirit in the Lords Day but that he was translated by Spirit into the Day of the Lord and all that he recorded had to do with the future Day of the Lord. However, some early church writers a few hundred years later already being used to misinterpreting it as Sunday tried to suggest that Sunday was called the day of the Lord in the first century based on this verse in Rev 1. I do not think they called Sunday the Day of the Lord until much later. Even though we know that the Jews observed sabbaths the gentiles did not observe sabbaths and they were taught by Paul that they did not need to and to resist the Judaizers who attempted to pressure them. This war is still going on.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#66
Jesus told Jewish religious leaders that they searched the scriptures because they thought that in them were words of eternal life, but failed to understand that those words pointed to Jesus himself.
i want to stress a point about the grammar

that verse, John 5:39 -- He says "search the scriptures"
it doesn't say '
you' search the scriptures.
the word '
search' in this text isn't declarative; that is, He's not stating a fact.
the word '
search' in this text is imperative. it is a command.

Jesus is not saying, '
it's true you search'
Jesus is telling them, ordering them, to '
search!'

because you think life is found in the scriptures, but these scriptures are testifying of Jesus.
because Jesus is The Life. search the scriptures! the evidence of who He is is all over them!


just FYI ;)
i love this verse

welcome to CC HWatts
 
Apr 17, 2020
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ok
#67
My NAS includes "You" in John 5:39. So do many other translations.
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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Anacortes, WA
#68
My NAS includes "You" in John 5:39. So do many other translations.
It depends of what manuscripts are used for your translation. Here the verb may be the imperative or indicative mood; but the indicative never commences a sentence without the pronoun or some other word, while the imperative is so used.
Its not important for deriving the meaning of the passage. The point is these (Scriptures) testify of Jesus.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#69
The point is these (Scriptures) testify of Jesus.
yes

and since they do, i don't need to be commanded to search them for Him - i will do it because i love Him, and want to know Him all the more :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
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#70
Capture.JPG

i thought of you even while i was writing @Magenta, i know you don't agree it's a command but that's ok :giggle:
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,277
29,547
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#71
View attachment 214793

i thought of you even while i was writing @Magenta, i know you don't agree it's a command but that's ok :giggle:
I did hesitate to put it there, for I would not want to offend you in any way, since I have a great deal of respect for you, but I did check a few translations, and many of them did say "You read (or search, etc) the Scriptures... " :D

New International Version
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

New Living Translation
“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!

English Standard Version
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

Berean Study Bible
You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me,

Berean Literal Bible
You diligently search the Scriptures because you think to have eternal life in them, and these are they bearing witness concerning Me;

New American Standard Bible
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

New King James Version
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

King James Bible
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Christian Standard Bible
You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, and yet they testify about me.

Contemporary English Version
You search the Scriptures, because you think you will find eternal life in them. The Scriptures tell about me,

Good News Translation
You study the Scriptures, because you think that in them you will find eternal life. And these very Scriptures speak about me!

Holman Christian Standard Bible
You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me.

International Standard Version
You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me.

NET Bible
You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me,

New Heart English Bible
You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have everlasting life; and these are they which testify about me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Search the scriptures, for in them you hope that you have eternal life, and they testify concerning Me,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
You study the Scriptures in detail because you think you have the source of eternal life in them. These Scriptures testify on my behalf.

New American Standard 1977
“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me;

King James 2000 Bible
Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

American King James Version
Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

American Standard Version
Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Search the scriptures, for you think in them to have life everlasting; and the same are they that give testimony of me.

Darby Bible Translation
Ye search the scriptures, for ye think that in them ye have life eternal, and they it is which bear witness concerning me;

English Revised Version
Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;

Webster's Bible Translation
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Weymouth New Testament
"You search the Scriptures, because you suppose that in them you will find the Life of the Ages; and it is those Scriptures that yield testimony concerning me;

World English Bible
"You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.

Young's Literal Translation
'Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning me;


:)
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
544
118
43
#72
I imagine the apostles did still keep the Sabbath, being Jewish... but several first century historians wrote about the church, and described how they gathered together on the first day of the week.
So, as Jews, they still respected and "kept" the sabbath, but gathering together to worship and fellowship with other believers under the new covenant was on Sunday... apparently from the beginning.
There is zero proof of that and your not even sure of what you just posted because you used the words "I imagine" and "Apparently. To think the converted Jews didn't follow the example of Christ is ludicrous.
Mar 1:21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

However scripture says
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

There is no scriptural or secular record of Christ ever instructing anybody to disregard the Sabbath that was sanctioned by God from the beginning.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
That word "perpetual" means forever. The newly converted Jews would never have forsaken the Sabbath.
In fact Christ himself stated that He didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill the law, and keeping the Sabbath Holy has never been changed except by men.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
7,117
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#73
There is zero proof of that and your not even sure of what you just posted because you used the words "I imagine" and "Apparently. To think the converted Jews didn't follow the example of Christ is ludicrous.
Mar 1:21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

However scripture says
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

There is no scriptural or secular record of Christ ever instructing anybody to disregard the Sabbath that was sanctioned by God from the beginning.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
That word "perpetual" means forever. The newly converted Jews would never have forsaken the Sabbath.
In fact Christ himself stated that He didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill the law, and keeping the Sabbath Holy has never been changed except by men.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Most of the scriptures you pasted are obviously simply examples of how Jesus reached the Jewish people.... he went to teach them when he KNEW they would be gathered together... on the Sabbath.

Matt 12:1 even indicates that Jesus was teaching them by example that the Sabbath was being finished/fulfilled in him... walking through the corn he showed his disciples by example that it was ok to work on the Sabbath, by harvesting corn to eat. If he was demanding full observance of the Sabbath, he would never have broken a Sabbath rule, especially in front of his disciples.
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
544
118
43
#74
This verse should take on a lot new meaning in light of the Covid crisis. A lot of the Church is holed up in their homes and forced to meet online. Others are defying distancing recommendations--and at times even orders--to meet in person, and hug one another. I am not saying either party is wrong (nor will I).

I am also confused what's going on with Seventh Day Adventists, in light of this? All this time they were intent on telling us how much we were in sin because we don't meet on Saturday. Then this whole Covid crisis comes, and I'm not hearing any stories of SDA's meeting at all? So...meeting on Sunday is not okay, but not meeting at all is okay?
I imagine the apostles did still keep the Sabbath, being Jewish... but several first century historians wrote about the church, and described how they gathered together on the first day of the week.
So, as Jews, they still respected and "kept" the sabbath, but gathering together to worship and fellowship with other believers under the new covenant was on Sunday... apparently from the beginning.
The fact that the Jews gathered in the synagogue and breaking bread daily shows that they celebrated Christ ever day of the week, which would be Rishon according to the Jewish Calender. The word "Sun-day" comes from paganism.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
544
118
43
#75
Most of the scriptures you pasted are obviously simply examples of how Jesus reached the Jewish people.... he went to teach them when he KNEW they would be gathered together... on the Sabbath.

Matt 12:1 even indicates that Jesus was teaching them by example that the Sabbath was being finished/fulfilled in him... walking through the corn he showed his disciples by example that it was ok to work on the Sabbath, by harvesting corn to eat. If he was demanding full observance of the Sabbath, he would never have broken a Sabbath rule, especially in front of his disciples.
Talk that garbage all you want but there is still absolutely not one single word that Christ ever spoke that folks could even misconstrue and twist to prove or justify a Sun-Day Sabbath.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
7,117
1,746
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#76
The fact that the Jews gathered in the synagogue and breaking bread daily shows that they celebrated Christ ever day of the week, which would be Rishon according to the Jewish Calender. The word "Sun-day" comes from paganism.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Are you deliberately being obtuse?

He was in the synagogue to teach and reach JEWS.... not Christians. Of COURSE Jews were in the synagogue.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
7,117
1,746
113
#77
Talk that garbage all you want but there is still absolutely not one single word that Christ ever spoke that folks could even misconstrue and twist to prove or justify a Sun-Day Sabbath.
...and, again.... NOBODY is calling Sunday the "sabbath"..... except you.

Out of curiosity, what do YOU call Sunday, since you seem to object to the name, based on word origins? You know, Saturday is "Saturn's day", don't you?
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
7,117
1,746
113
#79
I am...to be quite honest....
Ok.... I stand corrected.

Many, if not MOST Christians do not consider Sunday to be the same as the Jewish Sabbath day.... or should I say, ONE of the Jewish Sabbaths.

"I" do not consider Sunday to be "the Sabbath", and I have never said so.

Now, can we get back to what Massorite thinks are the proper names for the days of the week? Names that are not "pagan" in origin?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#80
Agreed. There are two references in scripture about them meeting on the first day of the week. This seems to be the reason for it's continued practice by the early church writers. And in my opinion John in Rev 1 did not mean Sunday when he said he was in the Spirit in the Lords Day but that he was translated by Spirit into the Day of the Lord and all that he recorded had to do with the future Day of the Lord. However, some early church writers a few hundred years later already being used to misinterpreting it as Sunday tried to suggest that Sunday was called the day of the Lord in the first century based on this verse in Rev 1. I do not think they called Sunday the Day of the Lord until much later. Even though we know that the Jews observed sabbaths the gentiles did not observe sabbaths and they were taught by Paul that they did not need to and to resist the Judaizers who attempted to pressure them. This war is still going on.
The book of John was likely written in late AD90.

The Jews had developed hatred toward Jewish Christians early on, but it intensified after the fall of Jerusalem because Jewish Christians left Jerusalem based on divine warning, and escaped death and slavery that the rest of the Jews in Jerusalem experienced.

In AD 90, a section was added to the eighteen benedictions recited in the synagogues which denied the Messiahship of Jesus. As a result, conscientious Christians were not able to fellowship with Jews on Sabbath in synagogue worship. So, there was some intensification of punishment.

You are right in that the eschatological Day of the Lord could have been the reference here, but it could also be the Lord's Day in regards to Sunday. And, Jewish Christians were fellowshipping on Sunday and other days with Gentile Christians, observing communion with them. They may have attended synagogue on Saturday, to hear the Scriptures read, but they also met with a Christian focus on Sunday and other days.

The practice of meeting on Sunday is established by Christian writings as early as AD 135. Even the Seventh Day Adventist church admits that. Their historian, Samuele Bacchiocchi, researched this issue. He expected to find a much later date, perhaps blaming the typical "boogie man" of Sabbathkeepers, Constantine, but in fact, he found references that dated to the early second century.

Constantine only required a rest day for soldiers and selected others on Sunday. He did not deny Sabbathkeepers rest on the Sabbath.

Poor Constantine is the boogie man of Sabbath keepers, non-Trinitarians, and people who deny our canon of Scripture.

By the way, Samuele's findings were evidence Ellen G. White was a false prophetess, because she claimed a vision that the Pope changed the Sabbath. There wasn't even a Pope as we know it until many centuries later. There was a bishop of Rome, but he had no power like this. The idea of a Pope gradually developed over many centuries. It seems like wild-eyed cultists, including the cult leader I followed for a decade of my life, are totally ignorant of this fact.

But, then, I don't expect good church history from most Christians, let alone an ignorant cultist.