Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Salvation is a gift, it cannot be earned. It is only obtained by belief in the gospel. This is step 1.

Step 2: After receiving the free gift, you must continue in God’s goodness and walk worthy of the vocation wherewith you were called (Romans 11:22; Ephesians 4:1).
This is works

Its called receiving the gift in faith. and perfecting that gift by the deeds of the flesh

In Gal 3. Paul calls this foolish
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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I can do all things through Christ. :)
Is that a YES or NO? Do you really believe from that moment on she never sinned again at all in word, deed or thought? Also, do you claim to live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time?
 
Feb 29, 2020
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He is not going to forgive our sin debt because we ask Him to be patient with us and we will pay it back
That is a good point.

But unbelieving sinners wouldn’t ask God for anything at all. In order to even speak to God you must have some level of faith, do you not?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
If you had a debt of $100,000 and I decided to give you a gift of $100,000; and also taught you how to not get in debt again; then you decide to ignore my financial advice and rack up another insurmountable debt; does your irresponsible behavior make what I gave you earlier something other than a gift?
well yeah

But Jesus gave you rivers f living water flowing to eternal life.

Jesus gave you Food which will endure forever. Which those who partake of it will never die (you offered her manna, Something that will sustain her for now. But will perish, so she has to be fed again)

You offer her money, Jesus offered her life, through his love, Which is far greater than the money you offered her.

You have jesus, KNOWING she will occur a debt her whole lifetime, which she will never be able to pay. Saying, here, this will pay part of your debt, Now, Even though you can not pay for the rest of your debt. Try to enjoy the small time I give you.

see, You think you can earn your own way by paying for your own debt after you run out of the money in your senerio. The problem is you can't

The penalty of sin is death. Each sin you commit has attached a certificate of Death.

Money can not pay that debt
Works can not pay that debt
Religious tradition and ceremony can not pay that debt

Either Jesus paid you WHOLE debt,

Or he left you wanting. Because you still have no hope. even afterrecieving him. why? Because once you run out of "debt funds" which Jesus paid. Your own your own, the the first sin you commit, will bring with it your own deth penalty, Which you WILL be required to pay.

Good luck with that.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
[sigh]

The gift isn’t taken back.

It’s squandered by the gift RECEIVER.

God will simply just say to you, Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and will not do what I say?
Because they never had faith to begin with

"I NEVER KNEW YOU"

these words are nto spoken to people who were made children of God through faith.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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I find it to be a despicable doctrine that undermines God's grace and preservation.
I think you're exaggerating.

If having the responsibility to continue to believe in Christ in order to stay in Christ is despicable, then so is having the responsibility to believe in Christ in order to be in Christ in the first place.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
It’s a wonderful thing to have.

As long as you can bring glory to God, however you accomplish it, I support you!

At the moment we see things differently, I pray God that whoever is in the wrong here (between OSAS vs NOASA) can be guided into correction.

All praise to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yes it is a wonderful thing to have.

So if it is eternal. How can it possibly not be eternal (or conditional)? (hope you understand my question)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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That is a good point.

But unbelieving sinners wouldn’t ask God for anything at all. In order to even speak to God you must have some level of faith, do you not?
We all started out as unbelieving sinners who may have even believed in the existence of God, even though we have not yet placed faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Would you consider merely believing in the existence of God as some level of faith? As an unbelieving sinner, I came to God asking for forgiveness after being drawn by the Father and being convicted of sin. (John 6:44,65; Romans 3:23; 6:23)
 
Feb 29, 2020
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Also, do you claim to live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time?
Well, do you sin 100% of the time?

Do you strive to not sin?

Or is sin something you cannot overcome.

Do you want to confess faults in a public forum? This should be done amongst ourselves in private. Confess your faults one to another (James 5:16).

You must have faith that at some point in your life you will perfect your walk with the Lord. Answering your question isn’t going to change anything, it’ll just bring more ridicule. Let’s just say, herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God and toward man (Acts 24:26).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I think you're exaggerating.

If having the responsibility to continue to believe in Christ in order to stay in Christ is despicable, then so is having the responsibility to believe in Christ in order to be in Christ in the first place.
Not true and you overestimate self preservation and underestimate God's preservation. You make continuing to believe in Christ/stay in Christ sound like a difficult, burden that only elite saints who sufficiently pull themselves by their own bootstraps will manage to do.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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If you truly believed in the first place (and did not believe in vain) then you will keep believing.
...hence all the warnings and exhortations in the Bible to keep believing, right?

Saving belief in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.
Shallow soil represents weak faith, not no faith at all.
Jesus himself said the 2nd type of soil believed.
But osas has to jump in and say 'believed' doesn't really mean 'believed' in order to strip the Parable of it's non-osas meaning, then uses an example of those who really didn't believe to prove that everybody who stops believing didn't really believe to begin with.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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You make continuing to believe in Christ/stay in Christ sound like a difficult, burden that only elite saints who sufficiently pull themselves by their own bootstraps will manage to do.
No, you make it out to be that.
Which is curious because we both agreed that neither of us, personally, have had the experience of struggling to believe.
Besides, it is God who helps anyone who may be struggling to continue in their believing:

"Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you--guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us." - 2 Timothy 1:14

His help is there for anyone who wants to keep believing.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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Did you know that if your in a situation that might lead to sin, that God can withhold you from sinning against him, as long as your involvement in this situation is done in the integrity of your heart?

Look at Genesis 20:6 (KJV).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Well, do you sin 100% of the time?

Do you strive to not sin?

Or is sin something you cannot overcome.

Do you want to confess faults in a public forum? This should be done amongst ourselves in private. Confess your faults one to another (James 5:16).

You must have faith that at some point in your life you will perfect your walk with the Lord. Answering your question isn’t going to change anything, it’ll just bring more ridicule. Let’s just say, herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God and toward man (Acts 24:26).
You still refuse to answer YES or NO? I don't sin 100% of the time, but I don't claim to be sinless 100% of the time either. 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. So absolute perfection, sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time for us will not become a reality until we are present with the Lord, but that should be the goal to strive for. Set the bar high, not low. The word perfect doesn't always mean absolute perfection, but can also refer to maturity, which denotes those who have attained full development of innate powers, in contrast to those who are still in the undeveloped state of being children.
 
Nov 16, 2019
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you overestimate self preservation and underestimate God's preservation.
No, God helps us guard what He has given us.
That's not an overestimation of the role of self in persevering to the very end.
That's Bible, as I've shown you.

And you overestimate God's preservation when you say you are preserved by having your free will to not believe taken away from you.
But you have no problem with us having that free will when coming to Christ.
Free will is fine before Christ for you, but becomes "despicable" after Christ.
That's contradictory and irrational.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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...hence all the warnings and exhortations in the Bible to keep believing, right?
There should be warnings because not everyone has belief that is firmly rooted and established in the first place. Hence, the warnings. Those who continue to believe confirm that their belief was firmly rooted and established from the start. Those who do not continue to believe demonstrate a shallow, temporary belief that fell short of consummated belief, resulting in salvation.
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Shallow soil represents weak faith, not no faith at all.
So weak it had no root and produced not fruit, which does not represent saving belief. The "shallow ground" hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

Jesus himself said the 2nd type of soil believed.
James 2:19 says the demons "believe." Same Greek word "pisteuo." Are the demons saved? Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It can't. Your biased logic just doesn't fit.

But osas has to jump in and say 'believed' doesn't really mean 'believed' in order to strip the Parable of it's non-osas meaning, then uses an example of those who really didn't believe to prove that everybody who stops believing didn't really believe to begin with.
Believe really means believe, but to what level? Again, the demons "believe" in James 2:19, but they are not saved. John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed" in him turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. YOU CALL THAT SAVED? o_O
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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No, God helps us guard what He has given us.
That's not an overestimation of the role of self in persevering to the very end.
That's Bible, as I've shown you.

And you overestimate God's preservation when you say you are preserved by having your free will to not believe taken away from you.
But you have no problem with us having that free will when coming to Christ.
Free will is fine before Christ for you, but becomes "despicable" after Christ.
That's contradictory and irrational.
You have shown me your biased interpretations of the Bible and your faulty human logic, but you are not fooling me.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Did you know that if your in a situation that might lead to sin, that God can withhold you from sinning against him, as long as your involvement in this situation is done in the integrity of your heart?

Look at Genesis 20:6 (KJV).
yep he gives us an escape

it does not mean we follow that path

Reality is many times we are sinning and do not even know it

Our issue is we look to commands, Well commands are there to how us our guilt..

I can be obeying commands, yet still be in sin.

Thats why it is dangerous to put urselves under rules. We need to put ourselves under Christ. and his love, so we in turn can share and love others.

ONLY then will our righteous deeds increase, and our unrighteous deeds decrease