What does "predestined according to foreknowledge" in the sense of Romans 8:28-30 mean?

[UnitedWithChrist]

By the way, Karl Barth called the Bible the "paper Pope".

That showed how much contempt he had for the inerrancy of Scripture.

Guys like Leighton Flowers are promoting his corporate election view, though.

Leighton Flowers is a professor at some Southern Baptist related seminary. His whole life mission is refuting Reformed theology through whatever means he can employ. He hasn't succeeded yet

 

[Nehemiah6]

Predestination has nothing to do with election.

It has everything to do with election.

EPHESIANS 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world [ELECTION], that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children [PREDESTINATION] by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In neither verse does it say that either election or predestination is for justification. Therefore all may be justified by grace through faith if all will obey the Gospel. And when they do so they ate elected and predestinated to be perfected in Christ.

 

[Yahshua]

Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 8:28-30 [simplified]
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

29 For those whom he [knew before] he also [preplanned] to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

30 And those whom he [preplanned] (to be confirmed to that image) he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

It's "the elect" of Israel Paul is talking about. Not Israel, but the elect of Israel. The portion taken out. The same elect mentioned in Romans 11 and Matthew 24. The 144,000 from Revelation 7 and 14 of each tribe who follow the lamb wherever he goes. The firstfruits. The soon manifested sons of the Living God.

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[John146]

It has everything to do with election.

EPHESIANS 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world [ELECTION], that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children [PREDESTINATION] by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In neither verse does it say that either election or predestination is for justification. Therefore all may be justified by grace through faith if all will obey the Gospel. And when they do so they ate elected and predestinated to be perfected in Christ.

Election is not in the passage, sorry. You’re substituting words. Not good. Predestination has everything to do for those who are already saved. It has to do with the future hope of the redemption of the body. It’s a promise God has made those who are in His Son. Agreed, not about justification.

 

[Diakonos]

Election is not in the passage, sorry. You’re substituting words. Not good. Predestination has everything to do for those who are already saved. It has to do with the future hope of the redemption of the body. It’s a promise God has made those who are in His Son. Agreed, not about justification.

In Mark 13:20, Jesus identifies the elect (ἐκλεκτός [eklektos]) as those whom the Lord has chosen (eklegomai); Eph 1:4 says that God chose (eklegomai) them “in Christ.”

 

[John146]

In Mark 13:20, Jesus identifies the elect (ἐκλεκτός [eklektos]) as those whom the Lord has chosen (eklegomai); Eph 1:4 says that God chose (eklegomai) them “in Christ.”

Chose them in Christ for the future adoption, which is the redemption of the body, Romans 8:23. Before you are predestined, you’ve got to get in Christ. In order to get in Christ, you must believe the gospel. In order to believe the gospel, you’ve got to hear the gospel.

Nobody is predestined to be in Christ. That’s not Scriptural.

 

[Diakonos]

Before you are predestined, you’ve got to get in Christ

Sort of....we are predestined from the foundation of the world. According to God's foreknowledge. I'm not a Calvinist btw.

 

[John146]

Sort of....we are predestined from the foundation of the world. According to God's foreknowledge. I'm not a Calvinist btw.

Verses please, that state this? That’s not what Ephesians 1 is saying, btw. Paul says you’re not lnown until you become a son through the new birth. See Galatians 4.

 

[Diakonos]

Verses please, that state this? That’s not what Ephesians 1 is saying, btw. Paul says you’re not lnown until you become a son through the new birth. See Galatians 4.

Rev 13:8 tells us that during the 2nd half of the Tribulation, all who's names weren't written (from the foundation of the world) in the Lamb's book of life, will worship the beast.
David confirms this (Psalm 139:16)
Jesus confirms this (Luke 10:21)

 

[John146]

Rev 13:8 tells us that during the 2nd half of the Tribulation, all who's names weren't written (from the foundation of the world) in the Lamb's book of life, will worship the beast.
David confirms this (Psalm 139:16)
Jesus confirms this (Luke 10:21)

“From the foundation of the world”...not at the foundation of the world. From the foundation of the world to the present, names have been plac d in the book of life. It continues to be added to daily.

 

[Diakonos]

“From the foundation of the world”...not at the foundation of the world. From the foundation of the world to the present, names have been plac d in the book of life. It continues to be added to daily.

We really shouldn't need to have this conversation. It obviously means that "since" the foundation of the world. I.e. "since the earliest reference point we can refer to".
But since you want to get technical:

 

[Diakonos]

It continues to be added to daily

Alright, now its your turn. Verses please

 

[John146]

Alright, now its your turn. Verses please

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Paul is talking to people who are already saved. God already knows them. Once God knows you, He predestines you to be like Jesus.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We have to allow Scripture to define the adoption.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is the future redemption of the believer’s body. That’s the future hope of the believer. God has predetermined that those who are in Christ will have their bodies redeemed and conformed to the image of Jesus.

The question is, when does God know you as a son? Galatians 4 and John 1 answers this. You become a son when you call upon the name of Jesus.

 

[Diakonos]

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Paul is talking to people who are already saved. God already knows them. Once God knows you, He predestines you to be like Jesus.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We have to allow Scripture to define the adoption.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is the future redemption of the believer’s body. That’s the future hope of the believer. God has predetermined that those who are in Christ will have their bodies redeemed and conformed to the image of Jesus.

The question is, when does God know you as a son? Galatians 4 and John 1 answers this. You become a son when you call upon the name of Jesus.

So when do you think God writes a person's name in the Lamb's book of life?
When they're saved?
Before they're saved?
After they're saved?

 

[John146]

So when do you think God writes a person's name in the Lamb's book of life?
When they're saved?
Before they're saved?
After they're saved?

When they call upon the name of the Lord and become a son.

Galatians 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

God knows you when you become a son at the new birth. How do you become a son?

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[Diakonos]

When they call upon the name of the Lord and become a son.

Galatians 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

God knows you when you become a son at the new birth. How do you become a son?

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Understandable.
So when were the Apostles born again? I'll give you a hint, its in John 20. Go ahead and quote the verse when you find it

 

[John146]

Understandable.
So when were the Apostles born again? I'll give you a hint, its in John 20. Go ahead and quote the verse when you find it

When Jesus appeared to them after the resurrection, they believed and He gave them the Holy Spirit.

 

[Diakonos]

When Jesus appeared to them after the resurrection, they believed and He gave them the Holy Spirit.

I totally agree! "He breathed on them and said 'receive the Holy Spirit'".
Now here is where it gets interesting.....
Earlier, during their ministry in the northern-Galilee, they said to Jesus
"Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name".
Jesus' response was "do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven".
They weren't even born again yet, but their names were already recorded in heaven.

This verse is one of 3 linchpins on which this doctrine hinges

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Romans 8:28-30 [simplified]
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

29 For those whom he [knew before] he also [preplanned] to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

30 And those whom he [preplanned] (to be confirmed to that image) he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

It's "the elect" of Israel Paul is talking about. Not Israel, but the elect of Israel. The portion taken out. The same elect mentioned in Romans 11 and Matthew 24. The 144,000 from Revelation 7 and 14 of each tribe who follow the lamb wherever he goes. The firstfruits. The soon manifested sons of the Living God.

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

All believers are predestined by God, not just Israel.

Romans was addressed to a mixed congregation.

It is true that there has always been an elect minority within Israel. The rest were not regenerate. However, election is not specific to Israel.

There is only one man now in Christ.

Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
(ESV)

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Why not stick with the term predestined. You speak of election and then post scriptures without the term. You try to describe predestination without quoting the verses with the term. Strange.

"Election" means that God chooses individuals for salvation.

Predestination is associated with the same teaching.

God chooses individuals for salvation, and decrees that they will, indeed, be saved.

In fact, he causes it to happen. He gives them a heart of flesh that results in their faith and repentance. He takes away their heart of stone, which is why they avoid him and pursue evil and sin as a habitual lifestyle.

I'm not sure why you feel like my word usage is an issue. Is it something related to your free-willer theology? If so, you already know I don't agree with that. It proposes a god who doesn't know the future in detail. I worship the omnipotent God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...and Isaiah too

Isaiah 46:9-10 9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
(ESV)