No, I don't have an issue with someone expressing their opinion. They can disagree with me if they want.
Alistair Begg is an excellent teacher, though.
Servus Christi on YouTube......anyone watching his polemics?
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No, I don't have an issue with someone expressing their opinion. They can disagree with me if they want.
Alistair Begg is an excellent teacher, though.
Me: Obviously you're not used to it when someone is agreeing with you on a point.
You: No, I don't have an issue with someone expressing their opinion. They can disagree with me if they want.
Is there a disconnect here?
Since Jacob Prasch was thrown into the mix against Servus Christi... You guys should check out a video from him.
Keep in mind that he is speaking off the cuff... You may disagree with some peripheral subject having to do with eschatology
but the man is a wonderful bible teacher with a great understanding of world events.
Keep in mind that he is speaking off the cuff... You may disagree with some peripheral subject having to do with eschatology
but the man is a wonderful bible teacher with a great understanding of world events.
If he's a dispensationalist, I disagree with him on MAJOR POINTS. And, I believe he is a rabid dispensatonalist.
He may be able to explain their worldview, but it is not a true worldview. Similar to the Armstrongism I was indoctrinated in, it seemed logical but it was not.
I would recommend the book, A Case for Amillennialism, by Kim Riddlebarger, for a good understanding on this topic.
Dispensationalists are not even aware that there are other options, for the most part.
Here's what you must believe as a dispensationalist:
You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming
You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ’s second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the fall of man.
You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.
You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.
You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.
You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.
Here's an article which addresses the problems with each of these claims, by an ex-dispensationalist, Sam Storms.
By the way, the problem is not only with dispensationalists, it is a problem with historical premillennialism.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...u-must-believe-if-you-are-a-premillennialist/
In regards to Jacob Prasch having good teaching..like I mentioned, he seems to be a rabid dispensationalist.
Here's a pdf file with an article by Sam Storms that explains the problems with premillennialism, including dispensationalism, very well.
i don't think the link I listed above works.
Sam is an amillennialist like myself. He used to be a dispensationalist. He has written a book "Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative" on this matter.
Kim Riddlebarger's book "A Case For Amillennialism" is also excellent.
I challenge dispensationalists or historical premillennialists to refute his arguments. I find them rock solid.
I used to be a premillennialist myself.
Here's a pdf file with an article by Sam Storms that explains the problems with premillennialism, including dispensationalism, very well.
i don't think the link I listed above works.
Sam is an amillennialist like myself. He used to be a dispensationalist. He has written a book "Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative" on this matter.
Kim Riddlebarger's book "A Case For Amillennialism" is also excellent.
I challenge dispensationalists or historical premillennialists to refute his arguments. I find them rock solid.
I used to be a premillennialist myself.
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From the verses below, how can one not clearly understand that there is a period
of 1000 years appointed to the earth and those upon it, when Christ Jesus
shall rule and reign over the nations without satan’s influence that mankind
which remains into the 1000 years be finally judged and God vindicated for
His righteous and final judgement of mankind at the great white throne.
Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone wherehttps://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/20.htm#footnotes the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The righteous dead are ruling with Christ now in heaven.
These are the victorious saints.
The rest of Christianity is now on earth, fighting against the forces of evil.
These are the militant saints.
Satan is restrained in the sense of being unable to prevent the gospel message from going out. He is not able to completely thwart the spread of the gospel throughout all the earth.
At Jesus' return, all will be resurrected and receive their glorified bodies. This includes the saints ruling in heaven, which return with Jesus as disembodied spirits, and the righteous living at the time of his return.
If you view Revelation as one set of events that have no "overlap", you cannot make sense of the book, and you wind up with dispensationalism. Instead, Revelation is a series of visions that have overlapping content.
And, in Revelation 20, one of the most significant overlaps occurs.
The dispensationalist claims that a battle will occur at Jesus' return, AND a battle will occur at the end of the Millennium. The dispensationalist understands these two battles to be the SAME BATTLE.
Revelation 20 is a chapter which shows events that already were recounted in Revelation, except from a heavenly vantage point. In other words, the battle at the end of Revelation 20 is the same battle described earlier in the book.
This fact alone caused me to realize that the premillennial/dispensationalist view was faulty. Their view of Revelation ignores the fact that there are multiple visions with significant overlap.
Compare Rev 16:12-16 and Rev 20: 7-10
This is not the only overlap, there are MANY such overlaps that causes problems with accepting the dispensationalist view of Revelation.
Armageddon is the same battle as the one mentioned in Revelation 20.
Revelation 20:7-10 7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)
Revelation 16:12-16 12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. (ESV)
Regarding other dispensationalist issues, I would suggest the shorter commentary on Revelation by GK Beale.
I'm not even sure what you are saying.
Christ has already redeemed creation.
The events that occur through the Millennium, if it is how dispensationalists conceive it, are not necessary toward accomplishing this redemption.
I would like a more thorough explanation of what you are claiming.
Reply:
Isaiah 65: 17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Because you reject distinguishable economies in the outworking of God’s purposes, you reject that there can be a new heaven and new earth different from the one that is now, but not yet what eye has not seen nor mind conceived.
You are incoherent.
Amillennialists believe that the New Heavens and New Earth begin at Christ's return, after the General Judgment.
This New Heaven and New Earth is a glorified version of the Garden of Eden, where mankind rules over creation in resurrected, glorified bodies, under their Messiah, Jesus.
This may not be what some dispensationalists understand as the eternal state, but it is the biblical view.
If you are some ill-educated Christian, you may think eternity is spent in heaven, floating on a cloud. However, this is not what Scripture teaches.
Mankind started at creation in the Garden of Eden. He was given dominion over all creation, to represent God in the earthly realm. Adam and Eve rebelled against God. This rebellion caused the disorder and chaos that we now see in the created order. Jesus redeemed creation to Himself at his first coming, as the Second Adam. He is reigning now from heaven. He will return at some future point, and will judge all mankind at that time. Those who are saved will experience life on the New Heavens and New Earth, ruling over a glorified creation under their Messiah, Jesus. Those who are not will be "outside" this creation.
The type of language you posted describes life in this new creation.
I suggest reading Genesis 1-3, Romans 5, Revelation 21-22.
Reply:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the [substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Because you reject distinguishable economies in the outworking of
God’s purposes, you reject a time when mankind knows King Jesus,
not by faith, but by sight, yet need be ruled by a rod of iron.
(Rev 2:27)
Reply:
Because you reject distinguishable economies in the outworking of God’s purposes, you reject that just as there is a time of the fullness of the gentiles… so there will be a time of the fullness of mankind when final judgement takes place.
Trace this quote back to the OT.
It comes from Ps 2:9.
Ruling over does not mean a period of ruling. Ruling over means breaking them down and conquering them, which is exactly what Jesus does at Armageddon.
Here's a note describing the background from the Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible.
Psalms 2:9 2:9 break them with a rod of iron. See NIV text note. Defeating enemies with a scepter, originally a club-like weapon of war, was a common image for ancient Near Eastern kings. dash them to pieces like pottery. Egyptian kings attempted to extend control over foreign kings beyond their normal sphere of military control by inscribing their names with curses on pottery jars and then smashing the jars as an invocation of curse. This exact ritual is unknown in Israel, but the breaking of earthen pottery as a symbol of destroying enemies was understood across the ancient Near East. That said, the metaphor is sufficiently facile and transparent.
(NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible)
Additionally, within the Christian experience, God uses discipline to deal with his disobedient children, too.
By the way, the words for "rule" and "break" are apparently very similar in Hebrew.
I don't see Rev 2:27 talking about what you are claiming.
You must read into it your dispensationalism.
I don't even know what you are talking about.
Perhaps you'd like to provide Scriptures rather than your unsupported remarks.
If you are talking about a period of time when Jews are spiritually blinded and the predominant number coming to Christ are from Gentile background, I don't see how that proves the Millennium in any way. I still believe in this pattern. I have said that there will be a massive, successful evangelism of Jews just prior to Christ's return. There is nothing inconsistent with this and amillennialism.
In fact, that might be why a number of Jews are in Palestine right now, and why Messianic Jews are successfully evangelizing some.
I don't think it's any fulfillument of Matthew 24 as dispensationalists claim.
Romans 4 is clear in stating that the promises to Abraham have been GENERALIZED TO THE ENTIRE WORLD and GENERALIZED TO BOTH JEW AND GENTILE.
If any dispensationalist has read Romans 4, it seems as if their false teachings would be exposed....this and Ephesians 2.
Reply:
25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
UNTO THE END... The end of what? The end of an age... a period... a distinguishable economy... a dispensation.
When Jesus returns he will give to them which overcome unto that end... the power to rule over the nations for 1000 years.
The NATIONS?... Who are they pray tell?
When we see Him we shall be like Him... and we will rule and reign with Him over the nations.
I don't see Rev 2:27 talking about what you are claiming.
You must ignore it's plain meaning and read into it your amillennialism.
I am also a Jacob Prasch fan... About the only thing I disagree with him on is his teaching of a mid trib rapture.
IMO The start of the 70th week begins in heaven, When the Lamb receives the scroll. Since this occurs in first heaven, it comes as a thief in the night, just as Jesus warns those who are left on the earth. The Church of course has been raptured by this time. Furthermore Jesus may come for His Church at anytime. And in fact Jesus Graciously gives the same warning for both parties!