Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!

[Micaiah-imla]

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, no salvation without sanctification through the Spirit.

Any usage of the word not relating to salvation is easily discerned from the context that it is used in.

 

[Diakonos]

They really need to check who they let in through the front door here.

Maybe. I'd rather have freedom of speech and the opportunity to reason than a controlled atmosphere. It gives room for the Holy Spirit

 

[Diakonos]

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, no salvation without sanctification through the Spirit.

Any usage of the word not relating to salvation is easily discerned from the context that it is used in.

Yes, but you need to remember which salvation is being talked about. Sanctification is the salvation of the soul, not the spirit. Its the transforming of the mind in order to be conformed to the image if Christ in behavior and speech

 

[EleventhHour]

Yes, but you need to remember which salvation is being talked about. Sanctification is the salvation of the soul, not the spirit. Its the transforming of the mind in order to be conformed to the image if Christ in behavior and speech

Given that sanctification is also positional it is also spiritual.

 

[Diakonos]

sanctification is also positional

What do you mean by this?

 

[EleventhHour]

What do you mean by this?

Our positional sanctification is just as perfect as Christ is perfect. Just as He is set apart, we who are in Him are set apart.
It is our union with Christ.
Positional sanctification is as complete for the poorest and weakest believer as it is for the strong and mature.
Hebrews 10:10

Progressive sanctification is not the redemption of the flesh, but learning to live out, exemplify, our new inward regenerated spiritual reality.

 

[EleventhHour]

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, no salvation without sanctification through the Spirit.

Any usage of the word not relating to salvation is easily discerned from the context that it is used in.

^^^^^^^
Salvation by works

 

[Didymous]

Hi. this debate has raged on for centuries. i did a very therough bible study on this topic. it is very lengthy, but i deal with both topics and rightly divide the word on them. If you have your mind made up as to what you want to believe: then this study is not for you! because no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary of what yo want to believe: you will not accept it or believe it! But if you have an open mind and only what to know what the truth is on these two topics: then this study is for you!
I start with the negative then the positive later on. please do not post any replies to this, or ask any questions concerning it, until you have read all of it! for i answer all questions and objections in this study! if after reading you have unanswered questions: (which is unlikely) please feel free to ask them. i will answer them. but please do not ask questions that have already been answered in this study.
So for the intellectually honest, and only the intellectually honest people i have attached my study for their reading pleasure.

I can't access this. I wish you'd taken the time to write it here.

 

[Didymous]

they went to hell for it!

You don't know who went to hell! Check yourself. Also, try reading the next verse in Hebrews 6-instead of leaving it off to make your claim valid.

 

[Diakonos]

Our positional sanctification is just as perfect as Christ is perfect. Just as He is set apart, we who are in Him are set apart.
It is our union with Christ.
Positional sanctification is as complete for the poorest and weakest believer as it is for the strong and mature.
Hebrews 10:10

Progressive sanctification is not the redemption of the flesh, but learning to live out, exemplify, our new inward regenerated spiritual reality.

Right...learning to live it out, which is the faculty of the soul. I agree. Glorification is the salvation of the body (not yet).
What distinction would you make between justification and sanctification?

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Salvation by works

Philippians 2:12
[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Acts 10:35
[35] But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
[3] Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

2 Thessalonians 1:11
[11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power

^^^^^works salvation.

You obtain salvation without works.

You keep this vocation by how you walk in it.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

you need to remember which salvation is being talked about. Sanctification is the salvation of the soul, not the spirit

Can you post the scripture that shows this?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: [14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, no salvation without sanctification through the Spirit.

Any usage of the word not relating to salvation is easily discerned from the context that it is used in.

There are two types of sanctification spoken of in scripture

positional sanctification. This occures at the moment of salvation, As the believer is sanctified, or set apart as being "In Christ"

Conditional sanctification. This is an ongoing every day working of God, who is said to be sanctifying the church, Or the person who has been perfected. And is ongoing, and will fluctuate as each person allows God to work in their life..

The danger is making conditional sanctification a pre-requistie for justification. Which is not found in scripture. The fact is, Justification is required, before sanctification can even begin to take place

 

[Didymous]

Can you post the scripture that shows this?

Neither of you can post definitive scripture to support your position

Hi. this debate has raged on for centuries. i did a very therough bible study on this topic. it is very lengthy, but i deal with both topics and rightly divide the word on them. If you have your mind made up as to what you want to believe: then this study is not for you! because no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary of what yo want to believe: you will not accept it or believe it! But if you have an open mind and only what to know what the truth is on these two topics: then this study is for you!
I start with the negative then the positive later on. please do not post any replies to this, or ask any questions concerning it, until you have read all of it! for i answer all questions and objections in this study! if after reading you have unanswered questions: (which is unlikely) please feel free to ask them. i will answer them. but please do not ask questions that have already been answered in this study.
So for the intellectually honest, and only the intellectually honest people i have attached my study for their reading pleasure.

Hebrews 6:9 makes it clear that the author was addressing unbelievers, but you conveniently stopped reading at verse 8.

 

[Diakonos]

Can you post the scripture that shows this?

No problem

Salvation is threefold, from the inside out.

Rom 8:24-We have been saved...Justification-Salvation of the spirit. Saved from the Penalty of sin. (when we first believed)
1 Cor 15:2-We are being saved...Sanctification- Salvation of the soul- Saved from the Power of sin. (the highway to holiness)
Rom 5:9-10-We will be saved...Glorification-Salvation of the body- Saved from the Presence of sin. (the redemption of our body)

Some verses for the second line would be: John 17:17, Rom 12:2, Phil 1:6, John 8:32, 1 Pet 2:11, 1 Cor 1:18, etc....

Sanctification is the ongoing supernatural work of God to rescue justified sinners from the disease of sin and to conform them to the image of his Son: holy, Christlike, and empowered to do good works.
As Jesus’ resurrection was prepared by holiness of life, so the Christian’s resurrection is prepared by sanctification. In the work of regeneration, the soul is passive. It cannot cooperate in the communication of spiritual life. But in conversion, repentance, faith, and growth in grace, all its powers are called into exercise. As, however, the effects produced transcend the efficiency of our fallen nature, and are due to the agency of the Spirit, sanctification does not cease to be supernatural, or a work of grace, because the soul is active and cooperating in the process.

 

[Diakonos]

Can you post the scripture that shows this?

I just thought of a few more:
Hebrews 9:14, 1 Pet 1:2, Phil 2:12-13, Eph 5:26-27

 

[Judges1318]

No problem

Salvation is threefold, from the inside out.

Rom 8:24-We have been saved...Justification-Salvation of the spirit. Saved from the Penalty of sin. (when we first believed)
1 Cor 15:2-We are being saved...Sanctification- Salvation of the soul- Saved from the Power of sin. (the highway to holiness)
Rom 5:9-10-We will be saved...Glorification-Salvation of the body- Saved from the Presence of sin. (the redemption of our body)

Some verses for the second line would be: John 17:17, Rom 12:2, Phil 1:6, John 8:32, 1 Pet 2:11, 1 Cor 1:18, etc....

Sanctification is the ongoing supernatural work of God to rescue justified sinners from the disease of sin and to conform them to the image of his Son: holy, Christlike, and empowered to do good works.
As Jesus’ resurrection was prepared by holiness of life, so the Christian’s resurrection is prepared by sanctification. In the work of regeneration, the soul is passive. It cannot cooperate in the communication of spiritual life. But in conversion, repentance, faith, and growth in grace, all its powers are called into exercise. As, however, the effects produced transcend the efficiency of our fallen nature, and are due to the agency of the Spirit, sanctification does not cease to be supernatural, or a work of grace, because the soul is active and cooperating in the process.

You'll get a good picture of what 'sanctification' means from the temple service.
Common things, like bowls, were set apart and made clean for use in the worship of God by cleansing them with various things. These items were 'sanctified' by God for use in the worship of Him.
In the same way the believer is set apart and made clean for worship to God (sanctified) when they first believe:

"8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith." - Acts 15:8-9

"I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’" - Acts 26:17-18

This is the 'sanctified' person the author of Hebrews is talking about in Hebrews 10:29. It's the saved person who has been set part and made clean by faith in the blood of Christ but who then willingly and knowingly returns to his old life in unbelief:

"29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" - Hebrews 10:29

The person sanctified by God through faith in the blood of Christ who then tramples on the Son of God in willful unbelief and a return to their old life of sin has no sacrifice remaining to guard them until the Day of Judgment and will become subject to the same fate as the enemies of God. No 'once saved always saved' doctrine will save him on that Day. He has profaned the holy blood of Christ and has insulted the Spirit of grace.

 

[Diakonos]

You'll get a good picture of what 'sanctification' means from the temple service.
Common things, like bowls, were set apart and made clean for use in the worship of God by cleansing them with various things. These items were 'sanctified' by God for use in the worship of Him.
In the same way the believer is set apart and made clean for worship to God (sanctified) when they first believe:

"8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith." - Acts 15:8-9

"I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’" - Acts 26:17-18

This is the 'sanctified' person the author of Hebrews is talking about in Hebrews 10:29. It's the saved person who has been set part and made clean by faith in the blood of Christ but who then willingly and knowingly returns to his old life in unbelief:

"29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" - Hebrews 10:29

The person sanctified by God through faith in the blood of Christ who then tramples on the Son of God in willful unbelief and a return to their old life of sin has no sacrifice remaining to guard them until the Day of Judgment and will become subject to the same fate as the enemies of God. No 'once saved always saved' doctrine will save him on that Day. He has profaned the holy blood of Christ and has insulted the Spirit of grace.

The word sanctify basically means to set apart. It has the same root as the words saint and holy. For the Christian, sanctification includes three aspects.
-The first is called positional sanctification, which relates to the position every believer enjoys by virtue of being set apart as a member of God’s family through faith in Christ. This is true for all believers regardless of different degrees of spiritual growth. Paul addressed the carnal Christians with all of their sinful practices as sanctified (and thus as saints, 1 Cor. 1:2; ).
-The second aspect of sanctification concerns the present progressive work of continuing to be set apart during the whole of our Christian lives. Every command and exhortation to holy living concerns progressive sanctification (1 Pet. 1:16).
-The third aspect is usually called ultimate sanctification, which we will attain in heaven when we shall be completely and eternally set apart to our God (Eph. 5:26–27; Jude 24–25).

In my recent comments I am referring to the most often usage of the concept in the N.T.m which is obviously portrayed as an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in every believer. Yes, there are some places that talk about our initial "setting apart".....but we are also supposed to set ourselves apart, and that's what the ongoing process is. Its a transformation of the mind, leading us to godly living.

The usual usage of the concept shows that our soul (mind/reasoning) is being saved from thinking like the world.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

No problem

Salvation is threefold, from the inside out.

Rom 8:24-We have been saved...Justification-Salvation of the spirit. Saved from the Penalty of sin. (when we first believed)
1 Cor 15:2-We are being saved...Sanctification- Salvation of the soul- Saved from the Power of sin. (the highway to holiness)
Rom 5:9-10-We will be saved...Glorification-Salvation of the body- Saved from the Presence of sin. (the redemption of our body)

Some verses for the second line would be: John 17:17, Rom 12:2, Phil 1:6, John 8:32, 1 Pet 2:11, 1 Cor 1:18, etc....

Sanctification is the ongoing supernatural work of God to rescue justified sinners from the disease of sin and to conform them to the image of his Son: holy, Christlike, and empowered to do good works.
As Jesus’ resurrection was prepared by holiness of life, so the Christian’s resurrection is prepared by sanctification. In the work of regeneration, the soul is passive. It cannot cooperate in the communication of spiritual life. But in conversion, repentance, faith, and growth in grace, all its powers are called into exercise. As, however, the effects produced transcend the efficiency of our fallen nature, and are due to the agency of the Spirit, sanctification does not cease to be supernatural, or a work of grace, because the soul is active and cooperating in the process.

You said that I needed to remember which salvation was being talked about. That sanctification is the salvation of the soul, not the spirit.

I asked you to show scripture that showed this. The references you provided did not address the question.

A simple reading of the New Testament shows that the salvation of a person is not broken down into separate things. You are either going to be saved, or you are not. I do not see a situation where a believer’s spirit is saved, but not his soul (or vice versa).

1 Peter 1:9
[9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

You cannot have salvation without sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth; and the end of your faith (belief of the truth) is the salvation of your soul.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
[23] ...I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don’t see why some create sanctification categories. It’s not complicated at all. I see no scripture that talks about different sanctifications with regard to salvation.

There are two types of sanctification spoken of in scripture

positional sanctification.

Conditional sanctification.

Again, there’s no scripture that says this. It’s something being brought in by an over analytical reader in my estimation.

 

[Diakonos]

You said that I needed to remember which salvation was being talked about. That sanctification is the salvation of the soul, not the spirit.

I asked you to show scripture that showed this. The references you provided did not address the question.

A simple reading of the New Testament shows that the salvation of a person is not broken down into separate things. You are either going to be saved, or you are not. I do not see a situation where a believer’s spirit is saved, but not his soul (or vice versa).

1 Peter 1:9
[9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

You cannot have salvation without sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth; and the end of your faith (belief of the truth) is the salvation of your soul.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
[23] ...I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don’t see why some create sanctification categories. It’s not complicated at all. I see no scripture that talks about different sanctifications with regard to salvation.



Again, there’s no scripture that says this. It’s something being brought in by an over analytical reader in my estimation.

There's also no scripture that says "trinity" or "bible". These are deductive doctrines. That means you have to connect the dots and put in some work to see what is less obvious.

I could be wrong... but maybe you don't realize what the salvation of the soul is in Scripture because you don't know what the soul is. The soul is "ψυχή = the mind, will, and emotions; the seat of reasoning, the psychological faculty".

So whenever the Bible uses terms like reasoning, mind, thought life, knowledge, emotional life, etc....these are references to the soul.
And the ongoing work of renewing these things is evident in the N.T. and is the primary usage of the word sanctification. The word is also used for a work of the holy Spirit at the moment of Justification, but it is mostly used of what happens afterwards until the resurrection of our body.